Interview with Pat Cleveland and Guest Paula Bosher - Balanced Horse Project

Interview with Pat Cleveland and Paula Bosher.
It's always a pleasure when I get the chance to chat with Pat.  It's always such fun!

She has so much energy (which is a bonus in her line of work) that she just jumps of the screen or in this case, the audio.

I've had the pleasure of chatting with Pat on a few occasions as a guest but in this episode, we'll see how the process worked from one of her clients point of view, so that we can get a different perspective.

It gets even more interesting when you realise that the client lives in New Zealand and Pat lives in Alabama USA 

Pat is an energetic and funny lady and her conversations usually take on a world of their own.

So sit back, relax and I hope you enjoy this episode.

Introduction:
Horses are Pat Cleveland’s life, her muses and teachers.
The power of natural balance is magic to trainers, riders and most importantly horses.

Pat started the Balanced Horse Project to document how balance solved her horse’s problems.
A series of rabbit holes lead to the influence of birth trauma developed the crooked horse’s behaviour, physical limitations and learning.

She studied with the Resonant Science Foundation, the Berkeley Psychic Institute, Cherokee Shaman, Holistic Vet, Historical symbols, earned certifications in 12 holistic therapies, and is recognised as a Universal Energetic.

People bring horses to her in Dothan Alabama where horses unwind their bodies and restore body symmetry.

Whether a Mustang or purebred, once liberated from fear and pain, they go on to live better as natural sustainable horses.

International Consulting, classes and discussions on Zoom, clinics and workshops and travel worldwide.
http://www.thebalancedhorseproject.net/
https://www.facebook.com/thebalancedhorse
Email: Bhpcleveland@gmail.com

Interview: video version
https://www.facebook.com/equinevoices.co.uk
https://youtu.be/J9sUxsokPpk

Video version (alongside applicable podcasts) can be viewed on facebook and YouTube.
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Contact Ronnie.
mailto:equinevoicesronnie@gmail.com

Transcript

Ronnie: 0:11

Hi my name is Ronnie from equine voices and welcome to this interview with pat Cleveland and her guests. I've done a few interviews with Pat so it should be a ball of energy. Hi pat. Hello how is everybody today, hope you've had a good day or about to enjoy a good evening wherever you are in the world. I'm pat Cleveland and I'm an intuitive horse trainer. I started a long time ago. I was raised with and instinctive love for horses and a gift of feeling as an empath and also maybe translating telepathic information or physical clues that horses provided over the years. That has helped me structure an investigation into improving our approaches to horse training so that we can prevent the stress that is creating a lot of distress for both horse and rider. So I started an investigation called the bounce tours project, I was thinking back, actually, we came a registered research, I guess you would say in 2000, 1999, but I had studied a whole bunch of energy and holistic therapies between 1986 and 1999. So I discovered that they weren't doing what I needed them to do as a horse owner and as a horse trainer. So I put them all together and found out what worked and what didn't work to my amazement. Most of them did not satisfy what I needed to have sustainable horses, both for pre for performance and breeding. And so I threw it all out the window and trusted my instincts and started listening to the horses. And from there, we have documented progression of how to improve the body symmetry of horses before we train them before they're producing offspring. So before they go to the breeding shed, and then also for horses that are currently in work, how can we support them in restoring their center of gravity, their balance point into the center of the body. So that their bodies can maybe restore and come away from all the training problems and stress that they experience in their life. So that's the balance horse project, and that's just a summary on the surface of what I do. Thank you for your introduction Pat we've done a few interviews together and you're such a lovely lady and you're just a ball of energy and I love chatting with you. So we've got a special guest which is Paula Bosher I both said that correctly, who is from New Zealand and I think it's eight o'clock there is that right?

Pat: 3:02

It's in the morning.

Ronnie: 3:04

Three times zones we've got UK time, we've got Alabama USA time and is it the south islands new Zealand times. So Pats going to introduce Paula in a little while, she's one of her clients and then we're going to get a perspective from one of Pat's clients on firstly, how she became aware of parts, how it worked with a horse and what's happening now, which is always interesting. I know that I've done an interview with you and Kathy and you've been working with her horses, but sometimes it's nice to get somebody that's not in the business, that's an outsider that people can hear from because they're coming in blind almost.

Pat: 3:42

I think it's important because I can see things from my perspective, I have learned over years that my perspective may not be the everyday way of looking at life. So to have somebody to train, holds meaning for somebody who may be asking questions and not find the answers and go, oh, what is this woman all about? Well, I'm hoping Paula can translate that.

Ronnie: 4:06

I'm sure she will and I also want to touch on some of your other things that you do, also remind you later. With your work when you connect with them, but I asked you something about a future horse for myself and a companion for Toots and you as kind of to connect. So we'll talk a little bit about that because that's perfect for somebody that is looking for a horse and you can have the vets, and you can go the right route, but sometimes you want to go just a little bit more and you can go deeper and say okay, this is what's going on, so if that's what you want your horse to do, then I suggest that you do this, we can talk about that a bit later cause that's another amazing thing that more people should be aware of. So I'm going to bring in Paula and then she can introduce herself and explain a little about how you met. Okay. Hi paula.

Paula: 5:04

Hi pat hi, Ronnie.

Ronnie: 5:06

Okay I'll let you introduce yourself, Paula. So firstly, would you explain to people, first of all, how you came across Pat and why you was looking for something for your horse, and then you can go to a little more details of the process and what's going on now.

Paula: 5:22

So lockdown 2020 when the pandemic broke loose I already sort of had an inkling of training wasn't really working. So the conventional way, I'm a conventional trainer, I only do my own horses. I don't train for anyone else. And I was looking for a new horse and I'd done a few vet checks on a few horses and they're all failing. So for one reason or another, and I ended up purchasing a young then four year old and I was pottering away with him and I don't really want to do the conventional stuff again. I've got a young green horse that had nothing done with it. He came off the side of the hill and I thought, well, this is a chance to do something different and through various sort of different means and methods, I stumble across pat on Facebook and it all started from there really. And then I went for a deep dive, into a rabbit hole that I knew was there, I've known as there all along, but it was just massive, bigger than I'd ever expected to be.

Ronnie: 6:30

Okay so for the people that don't know what a rabbit hole is, just a few more details.

Paula: 6:34

So the conventional way is English, you get them in your lunge them, you start working with them, you do all the conventional stuff. Whereas the, this rabbit hole that I've gone down is very, more intuitive and I can't really explain it. It's like the horse tells me what it wants and what it needs to do, but it's not physically in my head. I just look at it and I sort of see what it wants, but it's, it's weird. I can't get my head around it still, to be honest.

Ronnie: 7:07

It's not weird don't worry, that's normal, you're amongst normal people. Everybody has, I'm seeing that jokingly, but everybody has intuition and when we were with horses We know, but sometimes when we're that close to it, we don't see it because it's not what we've been taught. So we just go with what we're taught. It's only when things come up you start to ask questions and you start to listen a little bit more to the internal you, rather than the external that you start to see things a bit differently. And it is trial and error, it's getting used to it because it's your own language and it's finding the right people to connect with to help you which can be quite difficult because I have to say this, it's not always about saying that that's not right, that's not right. If something that working and you only get so far, then you look at alternatives. Most people have good and the best intentions but when you start to ask deeper questions, that's when you get answers and you realize that actually it's bigger than that, there's a lot more to it and it can be as difficult or as simple as you make it. Now that obviously Pat's going to describe it completely different to me because she's coming from her work and her knowing my knowledge is not on Pats scale, mine's my own scale. So yeah you're amongst friends and there's quite a few of us out there actually, there's quite a few. So you met pat and you got in touch with her. So what happened next?

Paula: 8:48

I did a course with her, which blew my mind completely, I needed some time to take it all in. And then I just keep pottering along doing sort of what I'd been taught to do, in the new tort teachings, not the old teachings. And as we're pottering along, I stumbled across a few problems that I had. So just recently our was a couple of weeks ago now, I contacted pat to ask her to help me treat my horse, which had more issues then I gave him credit for and he was hiding them extremely well. So once we got them sorted and fixed and he's balanced now that he can actually walk properly and without a limp anymore. And this is the youngster and yeah we're just finding new ways to, I'm finding new ways to treat animals without veterinarian and different ways of training really.

Ronnie: 9:44

Brilliant and obviously you're not in the same country as Pat so this is not face to face. So if you'd actually explain what did you do pat, what do you do with Paula?

Pat: 9:53

Well, first of all I come from the perspective that the first step in horse training is to create body symmetry. Okay. If you're not a symmetrical rider, you're like your horse not symmetrical and you can't balance equally between your left and your right foot and because of that imbalance, okay. You shift you tip and it's the same with the horse, they shift and tip. So then they start to offload and overstress say muscles and tendons or joints and it all falls apart. And then we do interventions, which is a good thing because it helps us with controlling the pain of the animals, so that we're being kind and humane, but we aren't going to move the point of the problem, the source. And that's what the horse trainers job actually in history has been, is to go to the source to figure out the language of confirmation and how we can use the horses body through exercises. We know dressage, we have all these historical writings about how to ride circles and spirals and where you can put your weight and what rein do you use okay. So we have all that, but what we have forgotten is that the horse itself has core muscles in those core muscles. Like if you did sit up, those muscles from the inside out is what expands and brings the horses body into symmetry. So that's the first part of my philosophy about horse training is that horses can fix themselves, we just have to ask them. Then there's the energy part of it. I have been one of those people that just have a gift and it doesn't matter, like Paula is a whole day ahead of me. Okay but I can for some reason, tap in through Paula to whatever horse he has a question about, and I can read what that horses emotional state is what their intentions desires are, where they have a physical limitation, where they have frustration and concern and what it is that they want us to help them with. So sometimes I get like, oh my God, what is happening? Okay. Cause I come in and I work with these horses with no preplan. It's just whatever kind of like comes to me. I know this sounds very weird but it's just how I work. So in Paula's horses case, he was saying that he was really having problems with his front quarters and it was put ting, his body, think of a slinky, like a twist and then it was slammed together and I got these pictures and then I take those feelings because I'm empathic and I overlay them onto who I am and from that internalizing, you'll see me what I'm doing is I'm trying to figure out what muscle groups in my core would facilitate the horse to go and create enough internal energy force to open up his body so that he can thrive. So I just overlay the template of the damage whores onto myself. Sometimes I see the horse, like x-ray vision. So I can pick up on where a horse may have chips in the joint or lesions in the tendon but it's all to me it's not the physical biochemical horse I'm working with, I'm working with the structure, the antenna that receives and transmits all the information I'm getting. Okay so the horses structure, skeleton is like a TV or microwave, it has to be symmetrical to send out and receive all of the information, all of the energy from the environment that sustains its life and so I get prickly feelings, I get twisting feelings in my body and then I translate that so that Paula can go, what are we doing? She's way, way over in New Zealand. And I'm sitting in Alabama and I just get the serpent, who's supposed to let go of the energy so we put a rocking motion. I think we also did that with your girl and that rocking motion is a wave of energy and that wave of energy asks the horses core muscles to lock and hold itself up while we're doing the ground and they can fix themselves. Then we have a horse that's becoming closer to symmetrical when they're working on restoring themselves, it's an energy based reaction. This energy based reaction, if you understand acupuncture or Reiki or any electrical sound or light magnetic field moving through the horse. Well that activates the genetic code in every cell of that horse's body. And when you activate the stem cells, they create spontaneous and rapid restoration of tissue. And so this is how I train horses. So that's how I help Paula. I said, okay this is the message that getting, and we're supposed to rock this horse a certain way, it was a little different than the way we rocked your girl. So Paula in New Zealand and I'm like okay this is what we're doing. I'm going to do this with your horse.

Paula: 16:07

Weirdest moment ever.

Pat: 16:09

That's just one approach but people want a recipe book, the first part of the recipe book is you need to understand confirmation and you need to understand that every horse is supposed to be symmetrical. Not we make the feet look symmetrical, or we ride them hours a day to make the muscles, those are artificial interventions. And that's where in horse training, I think we could do a little bit better by preparing the horse by developing body symmetry and then we would have happier horses. I babbled,

Ronnie: 16:46

No you do, you do what you do Pat and that's explaining how your work working, what your work is all about. Paula, so when pat did this with your horse obviously you were there, you was working with your horse and pat was giving you instructions what to do. So do you want to explain a little bit what happened?

Paula: 17:02

Okay what he done is, no start with what I'd done, I'd pushed him back too far using too much energy and he had slipped on his off hind and what I'd thought was torn a muscle in his rump or hindquarters and he'd actually gone and slightly popped out a stifled. So pat asked if we could do this shaking. So he did that and then she suddenly says, okay, can you pick up as off hind and then just press his hock Just a little bit, not much. I mean, God, I barely even used any pressure whatsoever and all of a sudden I felt this pop and it was heard this pop and it popped all back in and my husband's standing at the front of them holding him and I put the leg down gently and all of a sudden my husband goes, oh my God look at the top of his back. His back used to be a ridge where the two muscles that are along the sides and then his spine in the middle where that had dropped away completely and it was just as spine, just normal again. And I went, okay, well that's weird but all right. Then we let him rest and settle and pat and I just chatting and carried on. And as she was doing her thing and then all of a sudden his Gaskin muscle popped out and I was like, oh, okay, well that was flat before and then a few other things happened where other muscles started suddenly showing up in places where they weren't before and it's not something that you can explain well, yeah, I can't explain it, you've got to see it to believe it really to know what's going on and this horse now, after doing a few more treatments and the first time he cantered, I messaged pat saying, oh my God, he just cantered to the cross, the paddock and he hasn't done that in a week. And then it was yesterday we're mowing the lawns on the other side of his paddock and my husband was in the trees, then his shot off like a bullet and he hasn't done that in quite a while. So it's just trying to find other ways, because the question in my head was to fix this say they have to get a vet, which I already know the answers to that is because I've headed a couple of times of similar situations and I phoned Pat, best move ever.

Ronnie: 19:31

Absolutely brilliant, so now you've got a horse that's no longer lame and the thing is when you see something like that, we're not used to that.

Paula: 19:40

Not when I've been trained in the conventional training methods and you get the vet when things like that happen, so the question was in my mind, okay this is the question, that's the answer is either the vet or Pat and I thought I have two roads to choose here. I know the vet road because I've been down that road several times and I already know the answers to what the question is for that. I'm going to choose the other road today and see where we go because there is no harm in trying and I've got nothing to lose at this point, apart from the horse.

Pat: 20:17

He was laying down right, he was having bad moments.

Paula: 20:21

He was having bad moments. It was laying down, he was okay but he was definitely, it was a bad moment.

Ronnie: 20:29

Like you said, it's not that you thought I'm going to ignore that because I'm going this way, you know the answer to the vets, so it was like a no brainer. It's either this or it's the next.

Paula: 20:40

Yeah so sadly over the last few years, I've had horses, mainly thoroughbreds, and I have through the conventional way of riding and training, I have trained them up and they have subsequently broken down for various reasons. So the last one, the one that the picture is that you've got on the Facebook page of me riding a black horse. He had arthritis and his knees and he was lame but the problem mainly was that he had massive amounts of arthritis on his stifle that we x-rayed, he wasn't laying there at all, but that's where the major problem was. And within a couple of weeks of getting the vet for that he was put down because he couldn't get up or get down. I've had several of these, well, not several, but I've had a few of these, similar situations because of the conventional training methods and it hasn't worked. So I had a choice and I made the opposite one to what I'd normally make and the differences that I still have a horse in the paddock and he's not in the ground because that's where it was going.

Ronnie: 21:48

Yeah and it is difficult.

Paula: 21:50

You've got to do best for the horse, I mean what do you do that I'm sick of putting horses in the ground because of the conventional method and that's where I'm at now ridden horses since I was four. So I'm not a newbie to this and in New Zealand, we are quite literally 30 years behind the game and the training methods out there just, my daughter competes and I haven't competed for many years now, but even just through that, I see the conventional training methods. And I don't like what I'm seeing. These horses are upset. They're grumpy, they come off the float stomping. Some of them stand there, but you can see they're more shut down than anything else. Because they've had so much done to them and they've overdone it, and they're just trying to hide themselves as best they can.

Ronnie: 22:37

And your eyes have been opened now but the beauty of this is, as you were talking about what you were doing, there will be people that may listen to this and say well I know that because I'm a body worker so I know what that reaction is but we're talking about pat working from another country on energetic level. And that's what we're trying to get across is that the energy is more powerful used with if you miss that bit out you're missing a vital component to aid your horse even more and to help them renew themselves.

Paula: 23:12

Coming from the conventional side of it, this is a piece I've been missing for years.

Ronnie: 23:19

Pat will say that's been around before time, so it's not new.

Pat: 23:23

So this is something that I chose because I come from the middle of Ontario, Canada, and in the 1950 dates me 1950 sixties and seventies. I didn't have avet. I would have to go like an hour and a half to two hours to have a vet come to my place. And when you have like 12, 17 feet of snow, I mean, literally you open the second story window of your house and slide down a snowbank and have to have sled dogs and there's no vet. What do you do? What do you do? So I've done a lot of research over my life and I went back and asked myself, how did the original horse people look after the horses? How did they maintain their horses? And that takes you in to what we have today, which is horses okay. I have, I have a bit of a comment about that because I think if you're judging breeding horses, that they should be presented barefoot and naked so that the judge can see the truth of the horse's body symmetry, his quality of his genetics, rather than slapping shoes on and trying to artificially present a horse and make him look like he is something he is not. So how did our forefathers come up with the idea that to judge the quality of a horse it's based on body symmetry and why is it today that we're not doing that? And I just started going back and reading a whole lot of science. I studied with Racine Harriman, who is a physicist, and he wrote a scaling law for the interaction of the smallest particle. So if you get into quantum all the way up to the size of the universe, what are those mathematical scales? Okay. So that's a lot of scientific mind. So you're talking about geometry and math. Yeah. That's in the heart, but then I go all the way back to the, into European tradition. And it is an old culture that is basically been put into suppression and extinction and was called the Asur and because I'm trying to figure out why is it that in our cells, that genetic code, it's always trying to bring us back to balance. Skeleton is always balanced. Why is that? Because we live on a crooked planet. It makes a figure eight it has the sign of the serpent, so how can we be developed to be symmetrical while we're living in a force that's twisting, twisting us like a towel and our bodies are structurally designed to be symmetrical, but it doesn't make sense. It's an environmental contradiction. So I went back into the tradition of the Asur, which would take you to the Sami people the lap Landers with the rain dear and going all the way into the Mongolian peoples and the asters. The first story of the creation starts when the earth stood straight on her leg. There was no pain, there was no suffering, there was no disease, there was no death. Thinking about. And that's what inspired me to focus on the energy quality of creating symmetry and activating the historical record of being straight and pain-free as living beings, I took that and I went back and I looked at horses. There's a sepents in every horse. There's two serpents in every horse there, six serpents in every horse. So there's six different flows of energy that all create a twist of a circuit. Why aren't we reversing those patterns? Why aren't we taking that energy, those energy fields and tapping them back into the genetic codes so that the horse can be sustainable within his natural eviroment instead of having to do all these superficial interventions that aren't going to the source of the horses training problem and what are we left? We're left with horses that we all love and cherish, and we do our best but maybe we should go backwards in time and be more authentic and that's what I'm about as a horse trainer.

Ronnie: 28:13

That's given us quite a lot to think about. I'm just trying to think of a question because you gave me a lot to think about and we've chatted before, so some of this isn't new, but it's still like wow. When you're connecting with the horses what's the common theme that runs through, the ones that you're connecting to, what is it that they really want, as humans, to get hold of, to grasp to enable to help us and to help them.

Pat: 28:39

I think horses understand that at the core of humanity, that we have something very special. This may make me cry. Okay. Okay. We are something very, very special that the horse in from the very beginning of our history has been one of the few animals that has carried man and that there's an energetic intersection that has been recorded in the genetics between a horse and a human. Now I'm not saying that our DNA and everything is the same, but there is an energy connection. When you think of a rider, they sit over top of a horse at the base of the withers. We have a power, our main power channel and a human runs vertical and it, through the core and when we sit on the horse, that energy goes through the horses, body and ground. Well, horses have been feeling us from the very first time a pagan horseman ever put his leg over the horses back. And what we don't understand because we're so busy thinking in our modern technology and everything's testing technology and this gimmick and that thing wrong, we forget is that our energy merges with the horses energy. So in shamonic tradition, haven't been given a title by any native American groups but I was recognized by three sharmans and I was given the right to say that I'm an anus of the medicine woman because I've been kissed by lightning twice in my life. Okay. So I work with energy. So in shamonic traditions, the term, we all know the solar plexus. If you do energy work, your energy body wants to come and go through the base of your solar plexus. That's been tracked, it's been photographed, it's been measured so there is fact in science, just go look it up. So when you sit on your horse, the base of the weathers and your energy goes through the horse and the hearts is energy fields runs horizontaly your primary energy field going right through the solar plexus of the horse. So your energy field is merging solar plexes of the horse and it's the first sign of the cross. Now I'm not trying to go into Christianity or anything like that, I'm just looking at symbolism in history. So there is emerging in our horse history that the horses have a lot of compassion for humans because they're waiting for us to wake up. They're waiting for us to go back to who we really are. Right now we're locked in a world that is basically a placebo effect. What we believe, what narratives we've been taught to believe are separating us from being authentic and to be in touch with nature when it's really where we need the fit because there's a lot of goodness that we're supposed to be bringing into the animal, to nature to restore this existence. Now that sounds like a very far out there concept, but it is in a lot of the major myths and major writings that humans are special and horses see us a special now horse will reflect the belief system of the people around him okay because he's part of the placebo effect. which you believe is what you manifest. So if you believe the horse is kind of stupid and maybe a little defiant and you've had to be out there doing your thing to try and control the horse, then the horse is to reflect. And if you think that you're not capable of something that you're afraid to try to solve a problem on your own, then you won't succeed and horses see that in people. This is what scares them is because we're magic to take a bridle off a horse and go into a big performance ring and ride without a bridle, without a saddle, the majority of people are going, oh but what if that was the way it was supposed to be in the first place, because we're connected. When you strip all the stuff away and it's just you a horse and maybe maybe a rope that's when things get really, really down to being honest. So horses are frustrated with us because we are invisible to ourselves. We've bought into the narrative that we have to go somewhere else. We have to buy something. We have to get direction from somebody instead of investing in our gift of existence, we're powerful. What I choose to believe I was raised and I was educated as a classical rider and the foundations of classical horsemanship are very, very powerful because they're based on the authentic balance between a horse and rider and I took that historical thought of riding and I moved it into modern times and I lost my self-confidence as a person. I can't fix my horse. I can't do this. I can't do that and then in 1986, they repeated a scientific experiment, which won't mean much to people in normal life. But when you're into holistic and energy work, it validated the presence of the ether, which is the energy field that exists between everything and everybody. And when that came forward, I was just like oh my gosh, what I feel and can't say to people, because I'm just like the horse, nobody wants to listen to this. It's true, it's real, here's science. I have to talk about the religion of science, improve everything with facts. When sometimes we don't have the equipment to prove that. But what if it's real? What if it's real? So the horse has come to me and they say, okay, this person is in emotional distress. They are invisible at the workplace. They feel like they're incompetent. I love them. They're hurting me, they don't understand they're hurting me, could you please tell them how to not hurt me? That's a rough message. That's a rough message. Yeah. So what I say is let's make the horse symmetrical and not worry about all this other stuff. Let's go back to being authentic, to being pure to our gift. Everybody has a hand go up to a horsey and pat them, have you ever thought that your hand went to that spot for a reason because we're natural healers. Okay. Our hands will naturally go to where a horse has a problem. Our eyes will naturally go to where a horse has a problem, and we will talk ourselves out of not seeing it because we believe that something else is responsible for that knowledge, not us. So our horses are waiting for us because they want to teach us about ourselves because just think if we could straighten more horses, wouldn't it be an amazing world to live in? I just always dream about that.

Ronnie: 37:23

That was beautifully said and I could feel every word you said, as I always do, I feel that but even doing what I do my head tries to, okay what does that mean?

Pat: 37:37

There's the world of thinking? I get these little things I wake with up in the morning. We all live in a bubble, we all live in a little bubble and in our energy fields taking information and like, okay, so we listened to the TV and we read the book and we watched the video and we go outside and talk to our friends and we get all these things layered on to us. And we think about them because they're not authentic to who we are they don't fit into our heart. We can't feel it in our gut, so it's foreign. People, the narrative of society, education, belief systems keeps our bubble this size because we think and you accept it. And what is not true is not true for you is not going to resonate in your heart. So there are people that have to think that they have to function in a placebo state of creating their reality. And there's other people that experience their reality without thinking. And so those people's, their bubbles get bigger. And until it's like soap bubbles, you know, like some of it goes down and gets them to be like foam okay. And then there's other bubbles and they come up and you go, okay. And air that's inside that bubble just gets big. It expands. And I really think that's a way of explaining how my bubble expands over paula goes hi. Okay. Because I expanded out of the belief system that I have to think, and I have to know, and I there's a plan. I got a horse in cold lake Alberta this week, and you know, I'm trying not to interfere with what veterinarians are working with because they come from a good place in their heart, but this works was going to lay down and die. This is more like a veterinarian thing and I don't want to over step, but I was asked by the horse to provide an intervention. So we provided an intervention. I just applied to training exercise and then the horse is thriving you know but you expand and you accept that, you don't have to know anything to be effective. You just have to be a non thinker and allow it to happen. And that's really where I operate. So there you go. We went from horses to bubbles to New Zealand.

Ronnie: 40:36

And I find it fascinating. So I'm saying this for people that are listening as well. I'm not in your place, I know it in my heart, I know it, but I'm trying to relate to my head. It's not always words, it's not always translatable. So I know it, you don't have to convince to me I know that. And it goes way beyond that as far as I'm aware but we can only comprehend as humans at this moment so much, but it's about opening up to experience and to start believe in and that's what you said, which goes with the communication that I do, they don't want you to carry the burdens. They don't want you to have the up and down emotions, so extreme, they want you to be present and they want you to see, but with the feel of the changes. Now as I'm saying that I'm well aware that I do what I should not do with my own horse. So I'm being honest but that is the thing that drives me insane. That's why she galloped off around the field three times today and she went for it. Now, unconsciously, which is what I always do, my eyes drawn to somewhere and my head wants to see something and not see the other things that are going on, that's changed. So I'm aware of that. I'm aware in myself, because of the two aspects of me. Ronnie, the human, Ronnie the communicator. I think sometimes that's why I can explain it to other people to say to them, look this is how it goes and it goes for me too. It's not, I'm saying I'm special but it's the feeling we have to trust rather than the seeing. If we follow that the whole time we missing this, it's this first and then that shows you what's actually going on. And as I say that, it's almost like this veil is drawn away and you can see things from this eye, not these eyes. So that was beautifully said as always. You know, it may be a bit up there sometimes but that's your world and that's where you're coming from. My brain doesn't let me always go there, but I know in my heart that what you say, where you're coming from is truth and with the integrity and the horses at the forefront.

Pat: 43:15

Yes and it's a big step to take. I mean, oh my gosh, you just kind of go, am I making this up? The most important thing in my toolbox is my cell phone camera, because I'm constantly taking pictures. That didn't happen, that doesn't happen. And for Paula to tap into herself because she has opened up her own heartfelt connection, both to our animals, but also to the land that she's on okay. She's becoming able to see and to take that thinking mechanism and put it over there and just trust because you cannot explain the experience.

Paula: 44:09

That's the hardest thing to explain, and it's the hardest thing to trust too, especially if you're coming from the conventional side of it, of knowing that, right, we've got to get the vet next door, we've got to get this one or that one or whatever and then just suddenly realizing that you can do this and you can trust it. Just go with it for a moment, just have a go and relax and just let it happen. I think that's the one thing I've taken away from all of this is that I can do this and I can trust myself and I do know what I'm doing, but just, because I can't get it out and explain it correctly, doesn't mean I don't know what I'm doing. And that's the hardest thing. Even my husband he just sits there and shakes his head thought God, no, no, but it's, it's the hardest thing to explain. When we were doing the work with spirit the other week Pat, I could feel your energy going through me and to him. And I couldn't explain it, you know, cause I haven't done it ever.

Pat: 45:10

It's one of the hardest parts of this and I do think that we're on the crest of a wave of people with animals tapping in and going, oh my gosh. I think they're intelligent, they're telling me something it's really hard to explain that to people who are thinking all the time and they're not tapping into it. So my energy, you're my cell phone. I use you as the receiver so that I can make sure I'm working with the right horse. I have back tracings here some of the horses that were learning from years ago, I have one horse came in and we did training exercise for her because she was a you neck and hollowed back horse. We did the back tracing and then we did the exercises because I'm always trying to find a way to validate my statements because they're so bizarre. And we came back after doing a little training work and we retraced the horses top line, I mean I'm trying to be scientific here. I've put tape on the ground so that we know where the front feet are. Front feet are right on the line and then we had taped for the hind feet. So we knew where they were for the first tracing and the first photos and we bring the horse back and we stand her up. So she's in feet are in the front, perfect. The back feet we can't put them on the tape cause her confirmation shifted. This horse lengthened her body by eight inches in a matter of 30 minutes. How do you explain that? So when you have these experiences, you kind of swallow them and you walk out into the mainstream horse world. You have to bite your tongue sometimes because people are doing the best that they know how, because they've been given this book, this education, this has got them thinking what they forgotten the potential of nature and when you are in awe, that's where some magic comes from. I like words, words are pretty important so you take the word awe, A W E it's usually like you're inspired or you're in fear of a power greater than yourself. So I'm in awe of nature because it's very inspiring. Look what we could possibly do. Then, because we live in a dimension of thinking that's reversed, I reversed the word to EWS and it comes out in entomology, which is the study of the history of roots of words. It comes out to a E a E is the law of nature, the law of God, so when I am in awe of nature, I am working in a dimension that goes far beyond anything that the human mind can create. That's why I just love my job so much and that's why I work to inspire people to rethink how we train their horses, how they're breeding their horses, and to go back to the very basics of how do we work with nature, the horse and the human spirit. Then we actually have horses you can get on drop your reins, use your core muscles. Ride high end dressage or do some kind of reining or roping. And you're in connection through your horses energy gate, the solar plexus, the soul gate with your core energy, and you you're now an intuitive rider. If you ever had a riding lesson from me, it's all based on energy opening and closing different energy systems in your body and it works.

Ronnie: 49:47

So let's get back to Paula, so what's happening now with your horse?

Paula: 49:50

We've got a few days off just to let him settle himself. I'm not going to push him. I'm over the pushing of it all. There is no time frame anymore. I want this horse to last till I'm old, he's my fourth ever horse. So and he's the last one I will ever buy. So I'm going to do things differently by him. He's still not started under saddle that's my next job, but I need him symmetrically sound and balanced before even go there. So what working with pat says she's given me exercises to do so I would just carry on doing those. And then once he tells me he's ready for more then we'll go on with it. So I've already set up. With a saddle and stuff like that before and worked as such but I haven't done all the lunging or anything like that. It's just been, can I put your settle on to day, and the weird things happen. So I've asked questions and he would either sort of nod or then go like that. So I was like, okay, if you go like that, then there's no more it's okay. I'll hop off. That's fine. If you want me to carry on you just tell me if you carry on by yourself and or toodle along with you. It it's changed the whole way of do things the whole way. I think I try not to. Speak anymore, using words to use my brain. I just try and watch and listen and use my heart instead. And that's, that's the hardest, but it's trying to get out of using my brain because that's what you're told to do, right from the age of four, you've been told, talk to the horse or do this, or do that and you lunge the horse but not anymore. I haven't lunged this horse that he's gone around a few times just to walk trot and canter, but it's been sort of, you don't need to do that, that's okay that's enough. We spend a couple of minutes just using energy to bring them in, bring them out, push them and push them out. And it's just playing really just connecting with him more than than anything. you're

Ronnie: 51:50

The connection and you're strengthened now because it's like a muscle, more fine tuned it won't even having to think about not having the thoughts because it'll just be there on an energetic level. I'm listening to you. And I'm quite open to say this. I do animal communication and it's changing with other horses, but when it's your own horse, there's always your own baggage and that's the hardest thing. This is what I do and I'm perfect, I am not. Yes I'm good at what I do and a while ago, I wouldn't have even said that because that was all, no, you can't say that. I do the best of my ability that I'm given on that day. I'm not better than anybody else, I'm just my best at that moment and I take responsibility for that, but as Ronnie with our own horse, that's a different lady sometimes, and I don't mind saying that because I'm a human at the end of the day. I'm spirit but I'm human too. So I'm looking at you and listening to you talk and my heart is bursting because that's lovely to see and to hear your journey but it's also exciting because I know what's coming. I don't mean I have a crystal ball, but I know the depths and the tiniest things, but they will feel wow and it's just a nice feeling and it's such a beautiful place to be.

Paula: 53:12

It's so nice to not rush anymore because you see the system. I see four year olds jumping and made a 20 out in the young classes and I just think, no stop, we need to stop. This boys six and a half now, and he's still not started under saddle, we haven't been on a float to be anywhere yet. Like no. Why, why do I need to do that? I keep questioning now. Why do I have to keep pushing the conventional way? Why can't I just do this by myself? Why can't I change things I need to change? We have four horses here, three and a two and a half of my daughters and one and a half mine. Where it all really started is we adopted a wild comb anima out of the Rangers, when one of the musters happened in 2018 and that changed everything. I tried the conventional method with him and it just didn't work. Because he is so energetically bound to him and his earth that you try and do anything conventional with him and he just says no see you later. Then the lockdown happened and I thought, right I've got the time I'm going to do a deep dive and that's when it all really changed. But he was really the start of it all. We've had people here try and do the conventional thing with them and he just ripped the rop e right out of the hands through this lady across the other side of the yards and that was the end of that and he was only a yearling and not very big. My whole outlook has completely changed and it's almost like treating water. That's what I feel like I'm doing at the moment. It's treating water and trying to get up the side of the bank. And that's what it feels like some days is absolutely brilliant, but then there's other days where it's just like, oh my God, this water is so deep. Wouldn't want doing You know, you've got to challenge yourself and you've got to push the boat out and really change because if you don't change nothing changes.

Ronnie: 55:06

And quite often it's when you get to a point that you've got no options like you did. It's like, okay I've got nothing to lose, this is the last chance corral. I've got to try this. Where it should be now, the forefront alongside, there's a place for everything in the right place, but not to exclude, not to do all that and go, okay, now it's this because it's the missing link, it's the main thing that runs through everything. It's energy. We're all connected. There's no separation, it's all there. So why would we think it would be any different

Paula: 55:44

I think it's because we've forgotten how to use it.

Ronnie: 55:46

Yeah. And trusting, which is difficult because as I said a little while ago, when it's to do with your own, you get the old page coming up and then you get rid of that and go, no this is the new page but no, this is new page, but no, and you're just doing that, but you exactly what you have to go through that because without the old page, you wouldn't know how different, amazing when the new part of your understanding can be and what that can mean. It just amazes me, something happened today. I'm not wanting to talk about it because it's not for me to talk about but the communication comes from all parts of the world you know, I can get a communication from an animal I've never met, I don't know,that it's on either side of the world and it's not because I've connected with the owner that they've asked me to. It's literally, I know you're an open channel and I know you can pass a message to there, so please do that and that's what I do. I do that quite a lot and it's getting more and more frequent and because I've agreed, I've made an an agreement that I will always be open so it's just amazing, it doesn't cease to amaze me. And it's not always just one horse, sometimes it's a collective talking on behalf of another horse. They come to you and they saying, this horse needs help, can you do something? It would only come to me if there's a link somehow to go somewhere else. I'd love to say what it is, but I can't but this happens quite a lot. So it's not just today, this happens quite a lot and it just blows my mind. It just blows my mind and I'm humble that I get to relay that comes through me yeah and I would never go back, I would never go back. So I'm always trying to improve myself and trying to open myself more and get past the monkey head, the monkey brain but it doesn't happen overnight. Are you still with this pat.

Pat: 57:47

Oh yeah I'm enjoying listening because everybody has as Kathy said in your note that everybody has their own truth in their own way. I think part of the issue is that we're programmed to think that it's woo and it doesn't work and you do really good animal communication. Okay. You get validations back and you kind of go well, if it was just woo why message effective to helping somebody see something they weren't seeing?

Ronnie: 58:23

If I hadn't to trust it because it's not like here's a message, can you pass this on in neon lights? It's not like that at all. It's very, very, very subtle, which is why horses teachers so much, it's very subtle and you could almost ignore it and it's usually when I'm driving somewhere and I have to pull over, but I understand my own energy and I paid attention. And the thing is if it doesn't mean anything, it doesn't matter. Cause I always say if it means nothing, then don't worry about it. You know, it doesn't matter, but I've done my job on passing that energetic message on because that's important, so it doesn't matter to me. If you're afraid that you're worried about being wrong, then that's coming from a different place, which I understand it can be your own insecurities. Never know what it means until I get response back and it doesn't always happen straight away. Cause it might not be the time zone. It might be later. So when I get a response back, it's lovely because I go, oh wow okay thank you. And I will say thank you for allowing me to be a messenger, I'm just very humble that the energy comes through me in that way. Anyway it's not about me today it's about you guys. So pat earlier I talked about, which I think is an amazing thing, if that was something that you thought was a good idea for yourself for people that are looking for a future horse. So they've got something in mind, whether it's just to have fun with or to do something competition, you can go into that horse and tell him what's fiscally going know. But if they just wanted to know and they're following their gut, maybe they're just trying it and thinking I'm drawn to this horse. I feel this is a right horse but I'm not sure. Like we had conversation and as soon as you started talking I was pleased because when I was looking at the horse, no the horse isn't right, the horse isn't right from a video, I just know that. But they might not be aware of that. And you said, and I thought yes. So for me that's brilliant because that's something you could offer as a service for clarity and it's more information that they know and say, okay I can handle that I can take that horse board or actually in that case, I don't think that horse is for me, I'm not sure I can help that horse. Which means a horse will go to the right person it's meant to go to.

Pat: 1:00:52

It's good because there are people that are thinking on a different level about horses. So the exchange between the three of us, I think is very, very constructive cause it's balancing the different perspectives that we encounter. I started the balance horse project because I wanted to prevent stress and frustration that people have with their horses. I wanted to understand if holistic care added to training would have an influence. And I stepped into something that went way beyond that. So my heartfelt goal is to help people understand the horse that they either own, or they're looking to bring into their relationship. Take young horses and prepare them to interact with their career training. So that we have a really clear picture of what the horses limitations are. You know it's up to the individual, how they fuse you move the horse. This is how I work and it's not to prove I'm right or wrong or indifferent, but I work with people for all walks of life and all different ways of seeing and believing things. So what I always ask is that I can read your horse and I can tell you everything that comes through like you do but is it factual or is it subjective? When people are putting money out, you know go and buy this horse that was worth all this money. Okay. I always work by asking for very specific series of photographs and then that way I can meet with the person, I can read the horse, I can read horses. Don't take me to a racetrack okay. I can't read horses like you wouldn't believe but the bottom line is I want to move away from the criticism of being subjective. And to say that there's ways to show that the way we interpret our non-verbal nonphysical interactions actually have a relationship to the physical evidence as demonstrated by the horse's confirmation. Now the way, I'm going to view a horse from a intuitive holistic position is going to be much different than what you hear from a vet or a blacksmith, because they are educated in a different form of science they're taking regions or sections of the horse and going here, here, or here is the problem. Whereas I'm going to look at the whole horse. We have a confirmational deviation away from symmetry here, which means that he could have potential stress overstress that you might want to investigate. Here's the evidence through the photos. Here's how this stress relates to stress on the opposite side or on the top or the underside of the horse, which is causing the lopsided development of its feet. Okay. So I'm going to talk to you, but the interaction and the impact that body symmetry and centered balance in the body could have potential on your horse and where, how lopsided that center of gravity and body symmetry has become. And that's really what I will work from. My job is not to replace vet, I need to let you know that I don't work from a diagnosis. I just listen intuitively and then try to look at the physical evidence of the horse's confirmation so I can help people to see it because I can talk subjective things all day long and it doesn't mean anything. It doesn't mean anything and people don't learn because they don't hold on to words very well. But if they have a photo and I say, okay, see this, these spots here, then they always have that picture. And so when people bring their horses into our training programs, we do the same thing. We do a photo analysis to find out how trainable, where our training limitations are. And then we start training like Paul's case. And then we'll take after photographs and we'll do comparisons. Are we making a positive impact on the horse and bringing it into its most efficient state, which is symmetry or are we causing pain or distress by overstressing the horse and taking them away from symmetry? So that's what those photos do. And it helps people to learn and that's what I want and what people to see the horse just a little differently than, oh it's the hock, it's the stifle, it's the foot or it's the mouth, it's everything. If one thing is out of balance, everything's out of balance and that's what I can bring to people if they're buying a horse, if they have young horses that they want to prepare before they go to the trainers, so that the horse has a really amazing career if it's a performance horse, or if it's just a family horse, and you're having concerns about maybe the horse is unhappy and is translating into behavior, that's maybe a little stressful for people. Yeah, let's do something about that by educating our training side, we we've educated the medical side. Okay. Now we need to go back and educate and retrain the horse trainer, the rider to work in a holistic energy based environment of the horse itself and that'd be amazing. It's amazing what comes out of these photos.

Ronnie: 1:06:52

I love listening to you talk and you have such a passion and I know that it is changing. Yes. But I know through previous conversations, it can be frustrating because you have so much to share, but not everybody wants to hear it, but it is changing. And I think things like this and there's lots of avenues that are coming open and it's almost like the coming out the side ways and going into the center rather than being stuck in the center.

Pat: 1:07:22

Yeah, it's not linear. Yeah. It's like standard, you know, those guys that surf and there's the big curl and the guys going through, that's, how it feels. It's just like your sling shot through the curl of a wave. But it, it is coming and when I started I was given the opportunity to work with some average pacing horses in Canada and produced horses that broke track speed records and I was able to support a rider who had an ambition to go to the Australian Olympics. Her horse was falling apart on three-day event course. I think he ranked 53rd on the American selection list, which means he wasn't in the running and we worked together and that horse ended up going to Australia and placing ninth in the world. So it's very powerful this. I don't know other than to say, if you are a thinking person in this challenges, the way you perceive reality, it's okay to believe in magic because it is magic.

Ronnie: 1:08:35

Absolutely and that's a brilliant note to end on. I think we're going to wrap it up now. So do you want to come back in Paula? Do you guys want to just say a last note to everybody. Before we go if anybody wants to ask a quick question, do a quick one now, before we go. And while they're doing that, Paula, what would you like to say? Is there anything you'd like to say to anybody that's thinking about changing or adding something else to enable their horses, to have a fuller life.

Paula: 1:09:08

I think from what I've seen so far and I was very much of the skeptical side, just jump, just do it. You've got nothing to lose. And if it wasn't for pat and others that I've listened to, then I wouldn't be where I am today. I'm no expert at all, you know, I can barely string this sentence together in the whole, how it works or anything like that. But if it wasn't for pat being able to do this and meeting you now Ronnie thank you so much for having me on. I wouldn't be where I am today. I still battle, daily battles, so just follow your gut and just do it because you've got nothing to lose. If you're where I was, we're at a crossroads and it was just, well, what else do I do? I already know that path, then we're going to try the other one and see what happens, there's no reason why I shouldn't and why I can't. So that's what we've done.

Ronnie: 1:10:00

Brilliant. Thank you for that. Derek's just ask a quick question. What is the best bit of advice you'd each give to someone starting out in energy work. Pat, you can go first.

Pat: 1:10:11

Just laugh and whatever comes, just go with it. A lot of people have been educated that all there's evil out there and there's all this negative stuff. I don't perceive it as such and I think that when you realize that you each person, whether you're aware of it or you're not aware of it, you are sovereign. Okay. You are quite capable of turning to anything that makes you feel uncomfortable or you think is working against you and saying, you need to leave now. According to universal law, it has to obey you. So laugh when instead of being afraid and always follow things that lead you into an adventure. I've had so many adventures and I laugh, laugh because it keeps my hormone levels and if you get into science, here we go. Your dopamine serotonin and endorphin levels. It elevates them. So that even though you may walk through heaviness in your life maybe you have a lot of trauma. If you start laughing at the things you are afraid of and step into it and learn what it is that you think you were afraid to face. All of a sudden, you have nothing to fear because you understand it. So in you're believing the paradox and the narratives of whole there's all this really weird, scary stuff out there. Okay. Well, that's somebody else's experience. What would you like your experience to be? Because what you believe is what you shape. You create placebos, placebo, look it up, which you believe is what you will bring towards you. So happy and not having fear is the best way to start, no fear.

Ronnie: 1:12:34

Thank you pat that was lovely. Would you like to see anything Paula.

Paula: 1:12:37

Thank you pat for sticking another piece into my puzzle there, I just went ching! Thank you. Thank you, Ronnie, for having me on and anyone that's listening, just jump, just do it. You've got nothing to lose.

Ronnie: 1:12:50

You welcome. Have a play with it, don't be afraid. Even if you think it's your imagination, as long as you're not hurting anybody else, it doesn't matter. You will find out. You won't know until you take that first jump, because until you get feedback, as the horses asked for feedback, you won't know. You just got to be brave and take that first jump. It's lovely to have people listening and taking an interest and you don't have to agree with everything that everybody said tonight, it's not about that. What it is about is just open your mind and to start ask questions within yourself. And just to play around with it because you have to start somewhere and we're not perfect. And I certainly don't get it right with my own horse. I would love to do it more, but I have to put the work in, so just believe in yourself. It's not about being perfect. It's about sharing a conversation enlightenment, a spark, and if something that you've heard tonight resonates with you or it doesn't, but you'd like to look into it a bit more. Pat is open to having a conversation. If you want to send her an email yeah, just have fun with your horses. Just take the plunge and start on your particular path on your journey where that's going to take you, because I can promise you one thing. Once you start, you won't go back, it doesn't matter how hard it is you can't go back, you can't unlearn what you're re- learning, it's relearning okay. Thank you really appreciate your support it means the world but it means the word to my guests too, because they do this in their time, they join and they generally want to share their knowledge with you guys. So take care, thank you and we'll chat to you soon. Bye for now.