Interview with Justin W Dunn - www.justindunnhorsemanship.com

Interview with Justin W Dunn - www.justindunnhorsemanship.com
I'm very pleased to announce an interview with Justin Dunn from Justin Dunn Horsemanship - American Mustang School.

This was my second conversation with Justin and since we last chatted quite a few things had changed.

I was so excited to hear all about his new ventures, as well chatting about the release of his first book (date to be confirmed) and how life is progressing for Justin, his family and his beautiful horses.

Justin is a humble, unassuming kind of guy and the love for his fellow human being as well as his beloved horses, is something to admire.

So sit back, relax and I hope you enjoy this episode.

Justin W Dunn.
Founder and CEO of American Mustang School, in Aberdeen, North Carolina. Promoting mental health and wellness through the preservation of the American Mustang Horses
Justin Dunn specialises training wild horses (mustangs) and horses with undesirable behaviour issues.

He has 9 horses, consisting of BLM Mustangs, rescue horses, and some once considered untrainable horses.
Justin trains horses for a (higher purpose) and his horses help him, help others.

His team of horses have helped with a camp for children with cancer for six years, an (at-risk) children’s program, and countless clinics for people wanting to learn Horsemanship.
Justin is recognised as a top trainer and clinician at the national level.

He has traveled all over the country sharing with people, what horses share with him.
His passion is to help people understand horses, and horses understand people.

Promoting life enrichment, self discovery, and spiritual enlightenment.
Some facts you may find interesting, Justin never uses metal bits, spurs or whips on the horses to communicate.
He believes in humane treatment of horses, never using pain or fear to force submission, creating a (willing partner) in the relationship.

He created and uses the Justin Dunn Bit-less Bridle, manufactured by Weaver Leather.
His bridle is used by thousands of people all over the world.

Trade places with your horse, treat them as you would want to be treated if the roles were reversed.
Present what you expect, what you think and do, you will become.

Mission statement:
Promotion of mental health, through the preservation of the American Mustang Horses.
Accomplish mission- life enrichment for both, finding joy in relationship, as we help other horses and people enrich their lives, discover their true self, find purpose, harmony and balance in themselves and in life.
https://www.justindunnhorsemanship.com

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Contact Ronnie.
mailto:equinevoicesronnie@gmail.com

Transcript

Ronnie: 0:11

Welcome to Equine Voices my name is Ronnie and I am your host for today's interview. Justin Dunn from Justin Dunn horsemanship will be joining me shortly. So I spoke to Justin, I think it was about two years ago. I had to look to see when we lasted an interview, and I was convinced in my head that this was our third get together, but I think it's our second. Justin was one of the original people that I contacted when I first started my podcast. And I was aware of him through his YouTube channel and his horse Cinnamon, which is amazing horse and moonshine. He's no longer with us in body, but he's in spirit. Anyway, I'm gonna bring Justin in and then he can introduce himself and say hi. Okay. Hi Justin.

Justin: 1:00

Hey Ronnie. How are you?

Ronnie: 1:02

I'm fine. I was having a bit of a panic I was thinking. Okay he's not here.

Justin: 1:07

Oh apologize. I got a new computer and I forgot that I hadn't set Facebook on it.

Ronnie: 1:12

Don't worry about that, that's fine. Is this our second get together or is it our third?

Justin: 1:19

I don't know, I think second.

Ronnie: 1:21

I think it is second isn't it? I think it's cause we tried to get together at the beginning, but it took a little while for us to both sort of data out wasn't it? Yeah. Okay. So would you like to introduce yourself. Off you go, Justin.

Justin: 1:34

Okay my name's Justin. I have a school in Aberdeen, North Carolina, and we teach horsemanship and health and wellness, mental health and wellness through horsemanship for our military and their families and I moved from Colorado to here. We're having a blast doing that. I got to play with a new horse today, his name's Gus and his owner wants him to kinda understand the basics or have a good foundation of the human element. So we get to play with him, help him understand that. And it runs along the lines of what I teach in our school to horses and people. And there's five levels. We start with level one and work through to level five, and the horses have a deeper understanding what we expect of them, and then we get a deeper understanding of the horses as we do that.

Ronnie: 2:31

Thank you justin, would you like to talk about the main horses in your life that you've had? So a little bit about cinnamon, and I know I mentioned Moon shine and you know, have sunshine. Would you like to chatter a little bit about those?

Justin: 2:45

Yeah. So Cinnamon, you mentioned her. Yeah. She's a Mustang that we got, I believe it was in 2013 and she was caught out of Calico Mountains, Nevada. So she's a Nevada horse. She came to us, I did a Mustang makeover with her in Fort Worth and 25 Days Outta the Wild, I shot that little video with my daughter Emma. Emma was two at the time, and then I posted the video a year later and it went viral. So Cimmons's pretty famous, a lot more famous than I'll ever be, but That's okay. She she deserves it. And she's still here with us. She does a lot of our level five classes. She's a bridless horse. People can ride her bridals and she's very good at it. So kind of showcases the intelligence of the Mustang and then allows people that would never have access to a horse of that caliber access. I didn't really want a mayor mixed in with all my geldings, but she's kind of the mother hen of all my geldings. So she keeps everybody in order and that really helps out a lot in the school. So yeah, her coming to us has been very beneficial in our school. I mean, every horse that we have is beneficial in some regard because they all bring something different. Cinnamon's just a really affectionate type horse and she helps people that are apprehensive about horses calm down and really like that about her. So then, what other horses did you want to know about Ronnie?

Ronnie: 4:30

So you've got sunshine and you had a beautiful horse moonshine as well.

Justin: 4:36

Yeah. Moonshine, he's kind of here with us all the time because that horse was one of the defining, well, was a horse that really defined my horsemanship, I should say and he was a horse that really read intent in people and it could really understand where they were coming from, much quicker than they could understand at first. So, Moonshine prepared me for a bunch of horses that have come after that horse and then Sunshine, he's kind of the follow up to, to that. As far as what moonshine started, Sunshine's still finishing, I should say. Moonshine kind of prepared my mind. Sunshine, he's kind of preparing my body and the mind body connection, it's really important. One of the things we teach in horsemanship is the mind body connection. And whatever a horse is doing, it's a reflection of what they're thinking. It's so same thing with a person. Whatever a person's doing, it's a reflection of what they're thinking and horsemanship, horse human relationship allows those connections to become, Very strong and recognizable within each other. So a lot of people don't understand that they're doing things through action, that stem from a thought, but they may not consciously be thinking that thought. Yeah. Horses, they're real good at showcasing that to help us. So moonshine he helped me see the mind body connection and how important it was to consciously be aware of what we're thinking, what we're feeling, what our attitude is, and then what our actions are. And at that point, prior to meeting moonshine, I wasn't aware of that, the depths I am now, but based on that horse moonshine, he, he defined it, very clear for me. So, Whenever I teach today it stems from a lot of the things I learned with moonshine. So that's when I say he prepared me for today. That's what I mean. He helps me help other people understand four things within ourselves, we can control, and that being thoughts, emotions, attitude, action. And in developing communication with moonshine, I had to understand those two pathways of communication, which were the inner thought and emotion and then the outer attitude action. When I consciously thought of all these things and tied'em together, thinking in the combination of those things, I developed a really strong relationship with moonshine, probably will never be duplicated again with any other horse, but that's the cool thing about horses, they're all unique in different relationships in itself. So with Sunshine it was understanding those four things, consciously paying attention to'em and presenting the best version of myself to Sunshine to develop that relationship. So as someone told me one time, the moon prepares the mind, the, the sun prepares the body or something like that. It's pretty evident to me that those two individual horses have helped me pretty much write this book that I just wrote because in understanding what we can control and then take an initiative to do it, which is the four things within ourselves, thoughts, emotions, attitude, action, presenting that to the horse, whatever horse we're playing with and then observe their feedback and be willing to make changes in one of those four things or all four things to present the best version, observe the feedback, make changes, do it again. We get into what I call a feedback loop. And having a feedback loop with with each individual horse helps us refine those four things we can control, which are thoughts, emotions, attitude, action. And then each horse that I've played with ever since pretty much moonshine, I've kind of got a deeper understanding of each piece of those four things. So thoughts, you know, some horses, they know when you're engaged in the moment with them and then when your mind drifts. They're very acutely aware of that, or maybe an emotion changes and they're intently acute on that, the key in, on an emotion that might come up based on a thought, and then always an attitude and action, cuz those are pretty outward things. You're going to give them a visual of whatever you're thinking and feeling. So your attitude and action are equally important as the, the inner pathway, which is thoughts and emotion as attitude and action. So they're all important, but each horse cues in on each different one and helps us get a better, you know, clarity through engagement. Otherwise, I don't know where you could learn how to control oneself through, thought, emotion, attitude, action. You could present it to other people, but it could get tricky because there's a lot of barriers there that are not with horses, a lot of artificial barriers I should say. But it's one of those things I've tried to sit in front of a mirror or even do something like this, where I just look into a camera and talk and try to focus on, you know, those four things. But it's not easy to do that with horses. It's real easy to do that. So I didn't wanna get too off track, but those are what, those two horses that you mentioned kind of bring to the, to the table and bring to the school nowadays.

Ronnie: 10:37

Yeah, horses are very authentic. What you see they present themselves with authenticity. So there's no hiding. They show you what's going on with yourself as well as, as with them. But they definitely show you what's going on with yourself and, and like, yeah. And if you did that with people, apart from getting funny looks for you practicing that it doesn't quite have the same effect. Now, I know you just mentioned about your book now. Is this correct that you have a new book out and it's your first book is that right?

Justin: 11:10

Yeah, it's, it's not out yet the manuscript is done, it's turned in to the publisher. Pictures are being sent over to place in the book, and it should be, should be done within weeks from now. So it's getting close.

Ronnie: 11:27

Are you allowed to mention a little about what it is? Or do you have to wait for that to come out?

Justin: 11:32

No I don't have to wait. I can do whatever I want.

Ronnie: 11:35

You certainly can.

Justin: 11:37

Yeah so it's a long book the editor that I enlisted to help me do this helped me shorten it, distill it down, so to speak, because it's 20 chapters, but it could have probably been 80 chapters, so we gotta save some for another book. But it's 20, I have the manuscript right here, actually. It's not too big.

Ronnie: 12:00

We won't read that today then.

Justin: 12:01

No, no story time. You ready, Ronnie?

Ronnie: 12:04

So what made you write a book and what was the inspiration that prompted you to start your book?

Justin: 12:13

Okay. Well, I've been given information over the years because I eagerly searched for this type of information, and I've got to share it with people and I've got to witness what it does for them and transformation, so I thought, man, I better write this down in case you know, I have to leave Earth quicker than I want. I should write this down because like anything, if we don't leave some sort of information for the next person, they just have to go through everything that I had to go through to figure it out too, so why not give'em a shortcut? So I wrote it down best I could, and I'm not a writer, so good luck on the reading. But I hired a professional to help me. So he said I was a good writer. I never knew that, but the words just came as I wrote. And some of it's from life experience, I think I referenced back to when I was five years old and first experiences with horses and kinda set the tone or planted a seed, so to speak for what's happening today. The other thing is I'd like to see the things that we do today be duplicated. So I kind of wrote a blueprint kind of a roadmap maybe, or a manual to follow and at least springboard into, you know, something even better. You know, I came up with this, but I think if people could read it and use their own ingenuity and imagination it's limitless on the things that it could provide for horses and humans and that's why I wrote the book. That's a perfect answer and why not? But you're not going anywhere, by the way. No, I don't plan to. Good.

Ronnie: 14:07

So I know a little bit about you and I know that you've moved from Colorado to where you are now in North Carolina, and you've spent a lot of time working with children and adults. But what is your place now? What is the kind of work that you are doing?

Justin: 14:26

Okay. Well if you really kind of describe what we're doing as it's research and development. Proof of concept in how horses can heal humans and I have a contract with the military and I have to be careful on what I say with that because the type of people that come out here really don't even exist. They're super elites and the special operating forces of the Army and Marine Corps, and it's one of those things that we get to present to them something that is probably not thought of as a healing modality, so to speak. I mean, there's no drugs involved. There is actually psychologists involved, however, the horse becomes center and it's one of those deals where A person starts to really have to look within to find answers to whatever it is that they are going through. It's a tricky business. Military. I was military, so I got a good understanding of what it's all about. It's probably the biggest vice of conformity that a person could put themselves in. And with our wild horses, you know, being captured off the range and then brought into the human element, there is a way to do that to where it's very smooth transition. Our military members, you know, they're expected to do certain things that normal civilian people are not expected to do. And so they go out of human element in a lot of ways and for an extended period of time. Then they come back into the human element and they're expected to just transition smoothly. Well, the crossovers in a wild horse and our military member are so almost identical that what we do here at the school is ask the horses to help us help people help themselves. So in other words, I, I'm just a facilitator I have the horses, I have an understanding, I set the stage, but the person and the horse develop their own relationship unique to them. And it's not anything that I can create or destroy. It's, it's accessible by them doing what it is I show'em to do. And that's what the book's about as well. You know, I show. Simple, I distilled it down. So simple and basically five things to allow a person to develop a relationship with a horse. But as they do that, they find a deeper understanding of themselves and have the ability to control those four things we talked about earlier, which are thoughts, emotions, attitude, and action. And when a person consciously observes themselves inward and outward and then gets a nanosecond feedback from the horse, and then does it again, we repeats it. We start to understand these laws of nature that exist. And most, most people that come here, they don't even under know what the laws are in order to obey them. They, they don't know what they are. So just something simple as law, cause and effect. You know, you think of thought there's gonna be be a cause, and then the effect do an action as a cause, and the, the result of that action is an effect. So just understanding that one simple law horses abide in them every day and know them very well. Laws of compensation, you know, the, the, I mentioned these in my book. These laws that the horses abide in, they don't have the ability to drift out of those. They're pretty much adhered to them because the strongest law of nature is self-preservation. Especially a wild horse, they're not gonna just, you know, cruise over to the bar and start drinking and smoking and doing things that are going to destroy themselves. But a human has the ability to do that. And whenever put that into context and start engaging in a conversation with horses. The brain and the body start to communicate correctly and harmoniously, which is agreement. So when the brain and the body of the human are disconnected in a way to where they're not harmonious, they're not in agreement that's when you get problems. That's when mental health and physical health and all that breakdown, and yeah, you could deal with it in the beginning stages, but then, you know, it gets stronger and stronger. Those disconnections and people don't like the way it feels. So they sometimes self-medicate. You know, alcohol kind of cause a gap in those dominant thought patterns, the way they feel. Well, we all know what that leads to. So horses can cause that same gap in those dominant thought patterns and the way the body feels, you know, restrictions in the mind, tensions in the body. A person can sustain that for a while, but then there starts to get dis-ease, not not any specific disease, but dis-ease in the body, in the mind. And, and then that strong law of self-preservation starts to kick in and then a person starts having some real issues. But horses can help balance all that back out when we align with them and we start practicing being conscious of what we're thinking, feeling or attitude and what we're doing, and then we gain control over that. Some of those old thoughts just, they actually just go away. They, they're replaced with thoughts you want, not what the ones you don't want. So to answer your original question, what we do here at the school is we're providing a proof of concept that this actually works research and development, that it actually works. I get to witness military people. Men and women that have literally placed their lives on the line and done things that are, you know, normal people don't ever get, you know, whatever do. And then they have to deal with it. And then, you know, 17 years in they realize, wow, I'm in trouble. Where do I turn? So they start turning to all these other things that, you know, we have proof don't work. So American Mustang School was brought here 2019 and now it's an option. It's accessible and, and more and more people are finding out about it. So they come out here and I get to witness exactly what I wrote in the book I get to witness. So that's why another reason why I wrote the book is cuz I get to see that this actually works, but I'm only accessible to so many people. By just being in the spot. And, you know, the, the people that could come here, the volume of people, it's pretty small. So writing it down have a leveraged impact for other people to, to read it and develop it wherever they are. I don't even care to own the name of the schools that pop up all over. I, I would rather them use their own imagination, but just follow the, follow the criteria that I've, I've laid out and then enhance it, of course. But at least it's distilled down to where people can add to, you know, different things to it, to, to make it their own. But I've, I follow what I wrote in this book almost daily. And I get to witness what it does for people, what it's done for me, and then what it does for people, what it does for horses. So I hope that answers. Pretty good on why I wrote the book and what am I doing here at the school?

Ronnie: 22:44

It did I was listening intensely. And I know it's hard to explain sometimes but you are very aware of your, of your emotions and your energy and I know before we talked about how you was in the past and how horses have shown you a different way to be around yourself, other humans and obviously the horses. So if people are looking for something that you are offering, how do they get in touch with you? Do they have to be referred or can they email you and ask to come and see you in the horses?

Justin: 23:20

Yeah, it's very open. So we have a closed contract with the military, so you know, that's one piece. The public can literally call. In fact, I have a lot of people coming in that are civilian. Have a mother that brings two of her children and then a lot of retired veterans that aren't active duty anymore. And then just basic individual, you know, I have a professor from a college close by. She just wants to have a horse time, you know? Don't even have to be focused on mental health and wellness. Of course, it always benefits that, but I just had a lady ask yesterday if, if she could just take horsemanship classes learn how to interact with a horse and ride. So the cool thing about the way I set the school up is it's tailored to the individual's needs. So email, call, get in contact is fine. However, Facebook doesn't matter. The thing we do is we tailor it to the individual's needs. I also have a, a little Facebook group and there's hundreds of videos in there that'll give kind of a basis for, for what we teach at the school. I've kept out a lot of what we teach at the school just because of developing it, researching it, developing it, and I wanna make sure it works before I tell other people to do it. And then the other thing was I wanted to get it into this book and copyright it and all that before I send it out in our online group. But as soon as that book hits the streets, we're going to really dive into the book and dissect it and, and get people a real good understanding. So my online group will still is here, will still be here, and that's another way to, to get involved or, you know, start gathering some information that'll help, the person and their horse.

Ronnie: 25:13

Thank you Justin. Somebody's asked a question. So that's from Julie. Do you know that lady?

Justin: 25:18

Oh yeah, I know Julie. She's from

Ronnie: 25:20

Colorado. She's asking what the title are you allowed to say?

Justin: 25:24

Yeah, I, I'll I'll say the title cuz I, I had like four working titles and I kept just running back between what they would be and the title that I think we've kind of narrowed it down is going to be a Horse to guide Me. I think that's the title.

Ronnie: 25:42

That sounds lovely. So Julie says, hi. Hi Julie. Thank you for joining us.

Justin: 25:49

Or a horse that guides me something to that nature.

Ronnie: 25:52

So are they the two main ones that you're going with?

Justin: 25:55

Yeah, I mean, the others probably aren't even worth mentioning because their titles in the book now. So they're chapter titles. You know, when writing this book, like I said, I could have probably made it 80 chapters. I had to distill it down and try to capture the reader's attention long enough to get to the good stuff in my opinion but, you know, advanced intricacies of horsemanship, when I teach horsemanship, dependent on the, the individual's level of understanding you know, we have five levels that we teach. So level one, I could invest hours just teaching that, and that's just grooming for mindset. Understanding those laws of nature, understanding how we as people fit in nature, and then how we can control the four things within ourselves to coexist with all nature harmoniously. You know, horses are the best teachers at that. So just level one. I could have wrote a book on level one, I distilled level one down as much as possible. And then level two would go into established communication with a horse. And each individual horse I mean, it's infinite on what kind of things you would get revealed to you in interacting with individual horses. So in other words, I have nine horses here at the school, actually 10. I have 10 horses here at the school. Each one of those, when we engage in level two, Is going to reveal to an individual certain things. And then each individual that comes here, that horse adapts to them. And then I'll see, I'll see different things. So it's like, wow, this, this is the capillary actions of horsemanship. It's not just linear, it's, it's like tentacles in all different directions. And, and then as you explore each of those tentacles, it gets more and more beautiful and more and more blissful. And then your mind, I, I say your mind just gets, you know, ravished with all this energy that, I don't know where else you could get it. I may be a whale or a dolphin, I don't know. But, but whenever people come and play with horses, the, the things that horses bring That will reveal once we go into level two. It's phenomenal. It really is. And then go into level three where we transfer from the ground to their back. I could write a book on that because now we're, they're in a sustained feedback loop, moving in unity together through nature. Well, you know, headed that way. Level four, we get more toward that. And level five, you're definitely in nature. So those, those five levels I had in the book, but could write a lot more information on each one than I, than I did. So yeah, looking forward to getting feedback from people as it, this book gets out.

Ronnie: 29:08

When is the book due to be released?

Justin: 29:11

Well I talked with the publisher today and there's no hard deadline yet because I, I've sent in everything except 25 pictures. I gotta send in 25 more pictures. And I am not computer savvy, so, you know, I called him today and like, Hey, I sent you a five did it work. I haven't got any feedback I'll probably know tomorrow on those five pictures, but I was real picky on the pictures, I've kind of been the one delaying it to answer your questions, probably in the next few weeks, two, three, maybe, maybe a month at the most.

Ronnie: 29:45

Oh, good. So before the end of the year. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Justin: 29:49

I started writing it last May. Okay. May 10th, I started writing it and I just told myself I want to take one solid year to make sure this gets written out and, and gets published. So we'll, we'll beat the deadline.

Ronnie: 30:03

I've never written a book. But I'm guessing that when you start to write, especially when it flows, cuz that's your essence flowing through. if you put pen down, you start writing and it's just flowing, that's cuz it's meant to be that way but I suppose you get sidetracked and as you're describing one thing, you have to go into something else and something else, a bit like a conversation. Sometimes you can have a conversation with somebody and you get sidetracked. So I suppose being focused is the main part of when you're starting to do a

Justin: 30:30

book. It's one of those things, I, I even explained this in the book. I've, I've built three homes three houses, and I used to have to train myself to go. And do it, not necessarily the actual physical act of doing it, but find the energy to go do it. So I would say to myself, I would say self, we're just gonna go cut one board. So whenever you think I'm gonna cut one board, then back that thought with the emotion of like some enthusiasm, like, yeah, just one board, and then we did something and then your attitude lifts up a little bit and then you're like, okay, now I feel some motivation coming in. And then the action, you're like, your legs start carrying you over to do it and then you, you cut one board and it leads to two, and then two lead to three and three lead to four. And before you know you've been there eight hours and you've got a lot done. Well, same thing with training horses, you know, I'll just say, well, I'm just gonna go do one series of questions. Well, that always led to two to three and then before you know it, you had a good two hour session and you got a lot done. So when writing a book, it was like, well, I'm just gonna write one sentence today. Just one. Whoa. That one turned into 2, 3, 4 paragraphs. And then before you know it, you did four or five pages. And then it's like, wow, I did five pages today. So it's just a matter of getting the thought that I'm just gonna do one, break it down into tiny pieces. You know, obviously I didn't say, I'm gonna write a whole book. Say I'm gonna write a sentence. Heck, sometimes I just write a word and then I just look at that word and then it would just explode with all these other words and I just start writing words. Words a whole filled a whole paper with words one day. And I was like, wow, where'd all these words come from? What do they mean? So then I started writing what they meant, and then I was like, well, I need to put this into some kind of context. I'm not a writer. I just figured out how to do it myself and then I took this little phone here. And it has a thing where I could speak into the notes. So a lot of times I'd be on the back of a horse and I'd get an idea and I'm like, oh, I need to say this. So I would just say it into my phone and then I'd just ride along, talk along and kinda like the horse would know what I was doing. So then they would kinda like remind me, Hey, don't forget to say that. Oh yeah. And then I would just talk and talk and ride along. And then before I knew it, I had like notes full in my phone. So I would email those notes to myself and then I would see it on this computer that I'm looking at now. And I would edit it cuz the phone doesn't always transcribe it correctly and sometimes it's pretty funny of what it does transcribe. So I would have to correct all that and then I would just kind of organize it. And then whenever I wrote my manuscript, it was a lot of copy and paste and put it into the manuscript. And then when I sent it to the editor, he organized it even better. But his response was, man, you're a really good writer and I was like, well, I've never wrote anything in my life. This was the first time. So thank goodness that it kind of came out legible that, you know, anybody could understand. But it was fun I kid you not, writing this book was fun. And as you write a book, it actually kind of takes its own little life form and then you want to nurture it and help it grow. So then it brings into a lot more clarity and perspective. So when I'd go out with the horses and the people, I would really pay attention a lot more so I could gather information to put in the book. So then when I put it in the book and I'd wanna run back out and grab more information, and then I'd put it in the book. So it is just like went hand in hand, kind of complimented, you know, doing and writing. So it actually was really easy and fun.

Ronnie: 34:30

I think generally most things are if you've got an enthusiastic energy about it and a feel about it. And that was funny when you was talking earlier about saying when you was building your house, that you do one plank first. That's all you'd be thinking about. I can't remember where I heard it, but it's something to do with the mind, the brain that if you try and think of a big chunk, it sort of shuts off. It starts to shut off. Whereas if you say, we're just gonna do a little. Then it's okay, I'll let you do that, that's not quite right really, but do you know what I mean? And then like you said, you get enthusiastic and then that gives you the impulse to do the next bit and then the next bit. But I was also laughing when you said about your phone and you talking into your phone. I do that quite a lot cuz when I'm driving I get inspiration, I get thoughts and messages to pass on to people. And that's the first thing cuz it's easy just to put it into the recorder of my phone and then I can just pass them on. It's a lot easier and you get really excited. And sometimes if you think of an idea, you, you haven't got a pen and paper, it's easier just to pop it into the phone so that you don't forget, like you said.

Justin: 35:41

And now I do it, I do it all the time. You know, you kind of create a habit, I guess and I was trying to think of what the last thing I put in here. I put some highlights for the book, that was like the last thing that I did like, oh, I need to highlight some things and yeah, that, that's the way to do it. You get an idea. They say it doesn't really become real until it is written down. And I can remember business my, my dad would tell me, you gotta document it, or it didn't happen when you write an invoice for a job that we did. So if it's not documented, it didn't happen as far as, you know, I'm gonna send you a bill Ronnie for doing a job, but you weren't there to see me do it. I have to write down what I did to send you the bill so you can read what I did. You know? Then it became real. So it's kind of interesting whenever you, you think of it in that term real, but write it down. And it was a thought, whenever it write it down, it became real. You can actually touch it, you know, it's real.

Ronnie: 36:45

I think it magnifies it too. So a thought is a thought and sometimes it can sort of not land it or it's just floating around. Quite often I'll put, I know there's something coming and I'll either record one word a word comes and record the word and then the rest of the conversation comes or I'll write it. But normally for me, it's recording. Cause I'm, I'm normally driving when that happens or doing something. So I think it's like it's landing and then the rest of it can come through. It's a little bit like turning a tap on a forset you turn it on and then the rest comes flushing through. Yeah. And that's the same with energy, with, with your thoughts yeah, that's, that's my explanation. I

Justin: 37:30

agree. You know, energy is information, so information is wanting to get out because it's an energy. So whenever you have a thought, you know, thoughts come and go. But if you can direct that thought with, with energy information, whether it be an action to a horse or a pencil to a paper, the action, you know, following those thoughts, emotion, attitude, action, that energy or information transfers to the paper, transfers to the horse, gets fed back to the person both ways and it's, it's, it starts with a thought and a lot of times people have great thoughts, but they never manifested it to become a reality. Whenever I look at vacant land on those homes that I built, I had the thought, there's a house gonna be here. Well, if you channel that thought into, you know, digging the first piece of excavation to pour the concrete, to build the foundation to, to create the house, you know, they started with a thought manifested by thinking that thought over and over, and then allowing that energy or information to transfer into the reality of the house. The same thing with a horse. You know I think that's why I've been so blessed to be a good horseman is I, I get to see the horse and I get to present to them some energy or information and then manifest it to become a reality. That's the simplest way I could explain it. I think for this horse that I want them to be calm, quiet, thinking horse. I want them to be comfortable in the human element. I envision that way down the road, but I gotta break it down to a tiny piece and just ask them one simple question of will you back up one hoof and then relax, and then we apply another question, back up another hoof, and then relax. I mean, that's something very simple, but it's, it's building blocks to get to, you know, down the road where horses totally comfortable in any and all situations. I can ask them to get in my trailer, we can go anywhere we want to go and do anything we want to do and ask them to get back into the trailer and come back home. And nothing ever changed in their thoughts and their emotions, their attitude, and their action. As if I put a halter on them or as if I ask'em to get in a trailer. The harmony and balance within their mind and body stayed the same. It's, it's connectivity, it's agreement. So that's what I envision every time I get with a horse and think those thoughts present, those actions manifested enough to where it becomes a reality. And then it's just that simple. But it can be complicated if a person doesn't have control of themselves in order to implement those, you know, channel that energy or information toward what they want, truly want. Some people say they want something, but then their thought went away and they didn't really. want it.

Ronnie: 40:42

You don't mind talking or admitting that you didn't always used to think this way a while ago and I know we've talked about this before so you've come from a place of a slightly different Justin Dun to where you are today and this is through your own self-development with yourself and, and your horses, which I know your horses are at the forefront. So, because sometimes there's a little concern when people do therapy with horses that it's all about the human element and the horses are there to do a job to help the human, where I know yours is nothing like that. You are very much working with both parties and you've always got an eye on both horse and human because if you don't, you get horses at burnout. So I understand that. And you've got such a good heart Justin in that, that's not, that's not you anyway.

Justin: 41:42

No horses first. So we follow rules, beliefs, philosophies, and the belief is the horse is first. If we're not presenting what we expect from the horse, the horse never lies so they'll give feedback. If it's something undesirable, we can never blame the horse we have to look here, we have to make changes and then present accordingly to create desirable results or responses in the horse. So the horse is first, the only way the horse is going to aid us or help us do whatever it is we're trying to do it has to be a benefit to the horse. They won't follow, they won't, they won't do it. Unless there's a benefit. So in order to get a horse to care enough to, to reveal the things that we're wanting to do, we have to care about ourselves and then prove to them we care about ourselves, present to them, and then that is an attraction. When a horse sees what you're trying to become or starting to become, they wanna help. They're like, oh, you're actually trying to be a good person. I can help you with that. I wasn't that way long ago. I, I didn't look at it that way. I thought a little bit different, and I'm gonna get you to do this horse because it's gonna be your benefit, and, and this is just gonna be good for you and you'll know it, but that's not the way it works. That was more force compliance way of trying to do things. An attraction without promotion is what I really try to do now. It's something I want to create as a curiosity in the horse to want to be involved because they see what we're trying to do for ourselves. We're literally doing our own pushups and trying to become better people, upgrade ourselves and then the horses step up and are ready, willing and available to do that. So that's the difference from what I used to do, you know, and, and prior to moonshine to today, I want to present something to the horse that is worthy of them wanting to or be willing to be a part of. And whenever we go into it, you know, level one grooming for mindset. It's not grooming the horse for mindset. It's us. We groom ourselves. We literally are checking in with ourselves and asking ourselves, consciously say, what have I been thinking? What have I been feeling? What are my attitude and what are my actions? I'll do things where, well, let me back up a little bit. In Colorado, I was building a house, for instance, and I'd have to build the house in certain part of the day, and then I'd have to train horses for an income another part of the day. So I'm in the mindset of building a house, trying to hurry, get it done. It's something that doesn't feel pain. So I could cut a board with a saw, and that's not gonna hurt the board. I can throw boards, I can bang on'em with hammers, I can treat that house, you know, rough in a hurry and, and get things done and make noise and all that. Well, I would be in that mindset and I'd go down to, to train horses and then the feedback from the horse is not desirable. So then I'd be willing to change. But it was generally to go faster and harder and heavier. Well then it was even more undesirable. So I learned very quickly like, okay, I've gotta check in with myself and figure out what have I been thinking? Well, I've been thinking in a hurry. What was my emotion? Well, I was frustrated. That's kind of frustrating to be in a hurry all day trying to get something done. And then if it doesn't get done, then you're even more frustrated. So, and then your attitude, I would check in. Attitude's not real good because I'm frustrated. Actions, well, they're jerky and they're fast and they're, they're heavy. So I had to groom myself prior to even going to get involved with the horse. And I would check in like, what have I been thinking for the last 12 hours? Or what was I thinking yesterday? What am I thinking now? What do I want to be thinking when I'm with the horse in the future? So what I would do is groom for mindset before I ever got to the horse. And I would check in with my four things, my thoughts, my emotions, my attitude, my action. And then I would start changing those. Whatever one needed the most change, I would change it. I would consciously think it manifest it than it would be in a reality. I would walk different when I go to the horses. Sunshine taught me this when I talk about mind and body. Moonshine was more on the mind, sunshine's more on the body. Sunshine brought into perspective of what my body actions were doing before I was even conscious of them. So I would, I would walk to his pen in our early days of training and he, he would run away and, and run away from me. And then it would stop me in my tracks. And I would think, why is he doing this? I gotta change something today that I did yesterday. So what is it? Well, I had whatever it was on my mind, dominating my thoughts, causing a little frustration in the emotion. My attitude wouldn't be good. And my actions, my heels would hit the ground real hard. My shoulders would be tense, my eyes would be looking down on the ground, and I'd be kind of deep in thought on, not this moment, something else. So sunshine would pick up on that and he'd run away. I would literally just stop in my tracks, turn, walk back sometimes, get in my truck if I had driven there, or just walk over to a tree and just kind of think about these four things. Like what are my thoughts? Wow. I've been thinking very stressed out on building this house. While my emotion has been kind of you know, frustrated. My attitude is not enthusiastic at all. My actions are rigid and bray and not free and flowing. So I would literally change those four things. I'd walk back towards sunshine and he'd meet me at the gate. The very first time I argued with myself, you know I was like, oh, it's just a coincidence. Well, about the 18th time I got it. I was like, okay, yep. That's what I gotta do. I gotta groom myself before I present myself to this particular horse. Sunshine he reads intent. He's very empathetic. He, he understands things on a deeper level. And I get that. So, you know, as we interact with individual horses over time and we're consciously looking at ourselves as we present ourselves to that individual, that's what creates that willingness in them to like, aha, I'll help you I know what you need. I'm, oh man, this is fun. I can do this. And then they see you growing and developing, which helps them grow and develop. And then you get this relationship that's so unique and so strong that outside influences have little to no effect on either one of you's four things. And that's what I try to explain in the book. That's why I can get on the back of a horse and I can ride anywhere in the world that I want to go. It does not matter. I can present to my horse, observe their feedback, make changes, get into such a strong circular feedback loop. It's not intermittent or distorted. It's free flowing and circular. Outside influences have little to no effect on my thoughts, my emotions, my attitude, or my action. The beautiful thing about that is I have the ability now to do it away from horses. So going into the human element for real you know I have a lot more control and power to, to sustain a harmonious and balanced relationship between my mind and body. And then outside of that you know, standing in lines, I was given this example the other day. I do not like standing in lines. Actually, today I don't really care cuz I, I know what to do, but before I, I just could not stand in line. It would really get me anxious. I really didn't understand why people do it. I mean nothing made sense about standing in a line for me. But nowadays I can go well, I just observed that thought and kind of giggle, and then my emotion gets kind of happy, and then my attitude perks up, and then my action is just chill out, relax. It's just a line. It's not that big a deal. But I would not have developed those skills of not playing with the wild horses and understanding that we can control these four things, they're given to us to control, they're within us. I can't control someone else's, but I can present to them the best version of myself to create a curiosity to want to join what I'm doing. So I try to explain that in the book too and I use my wife as examples in that.

Ronnie: 50:48

That's a whole nother podcast. Exactly. Exactly. I loved the way you broke that down and I'd forgotten because I used to be in your group, so I remember you used to do little live videos and chat and then you show videos with the horses. And I remember the breakdown, how you described it, because if you think about it, if you are tense or you're angry or you're frustrated and your head's racing. So horses see that as sparks, sparks, sparks, sparks. It's like boom, boom, boom, boom. Your body is tense and you might be over bent slightly, which means your breathing is not as comfortable, but you don't think about it, you don't think, oh, my breathing's a bit shallow. Perhaps not to change that. It's only when you start to think about what's going on, how am I today? Which as you said, horses are brilliant at that that you start to look at yourself. And it's quite funny because you can laugh at yourself sometimes, especially if you have a real blowout and then you walk off and you are hofing and puffin, and then you think, oh, for God's sake, get a grip girl but it's funny because you can see the either side of it and then your whole body, your d demeanor changes. I found a good thing to do, and this was a while ago, but I hadn't done it so much now, but it's sort of coming back in. I would smile for no reason. And I think I heard it on a podcast somewhere. I can't remember who it was. And he said, the best thing to tell your brain that you are feeling okay today is smiling, even if you don't feel like smiling. And I thought, oh, I'll try this. So every morning in the car, like muscle memory I'd sit in the car and I'd put this smile on. And I think it was about a week later, I would see myself smiling and I was thinking, I'm smiling. What have I got to smile about? But my muscle memory remembered it, and it remembered sit in the seat, turn the ignition on, smile. And then that went throughout the day. But I found that that little exercise really helped with my mindset because it was like they were having a conversation and it's almost like my mind was saying, well, why are you smiling? And it's like, because I want to smile and I know that's not how it works, but that's how it felt. And it did, it really made a big improvement to how I felt in that day. It helped lift my spirits and then I found because I was lifted, other things would come in that a nicer energy would flow in, which would bring benefits with that too. When you was talking about horses reflect and their such a big influence with most people, I think it's because they're quite accessible even if you don't have a horse, you can see them, you can maybe passive field and there's a horse in a field and you get something from that as well. If it's a nice day and you go for a walk. Most animals can give you. A similar experience, but we don't always look at them in the same way. I know whales and dolphins and sea animals, but again, if you're not near the sea, that's not something you're going to interact with. But horses are probably the nearest thing genuine thing that we can interact with, even from a distance that we can get a feel back. And of course, they've got the most amazing big hearts. So their energy resonates far further than we realize at times. And that has, has a, a definite effect.

Justin: 54:24

Oh yeah. So you're talking about smiling intentionally. That's a form of self suggestion. So whenever we teach horsemanship, a person will start to think thoughts that what if this horse does this or does that? Usually it's something negative. If a person will self suggest to themselves, be brave, just say that, be brave because the horse is already just sitting there, he's already brave. The person generally is what gets the thought going, and then the energy transfers and then the horse starts to get concerned, like, wait, what should I be doing here, should I be concerned? So that self suggestion is what we refer to is when, when your mind starts going in a direction you don't want it to thoughts start coming in that you don't want do something to change the thought. Which is either say something or do something. And that's kind of thinking and association of, so when you see a horse, people think in the association of a horse, they feel good, they smile, they they're, they're happy, I mean, horses are so impressive. Beings. Just looking at'em brings, brings joy to people. So thinking in association of things, we utilize that a lot with horses. So like my Bitless Bridal. Every horse that I have when I show them that Bitless Bridal, they do nothing different than if I showed'em a halter but I have clients that have come and we show their horse a bridal with a bit, and the horse does not want it. Thinking and association of those things. Horses that are, you know, you go ahead and put a bit in the horse's mouth that doesn't want it. His thoughts are already going toward that object and thinking in association of that, the emotion can follow, the attitude can follow, and then ultimately actions can follow whether they're desirable or undesirable it depends on how that bridal is used in order to cause the horse to think an association of whether it's a negative or a positive. So in understanding those laws of nature and presenting to the horse and observing feedback, making changes, doing it again to get the most desirable results, whatever we're doing for ourselves or for our horses, thinking in association of those things will create the those four things to follow. Thoughts, emotion, attitude, action. So anything that we do, We try to create a thought in association of whatever it is we're doing that the thought that we want. So if we're, let me give you another example. If we got a horse that does not enjoy to trot circles, well, we're probably not gonna take them into the round pen and trot'em in circles, because every time you go to the round pin, they're like, I don't wanna do this. Because they've already thought an association of that round pin and what gets done to them in there so we'll take them into the round pin and we'll ground tie and groom'em, and then we change that thought by doing that. That's just one example. There's so many more. But you, you were, you brought up a couple of things with making yourself smile. Now I can take that same concept and I can trigger body responses of relaxation within myself or my horse or vice versa. So for example, we transfer up in level three onto a horse's back. And we do some exercises, and then we do a one rain stop and we trigger that horse to relax by. We take a deep breath, we drop our shoulders, relax our hips, relax our legs, take a deep breath, pause for a few seconds to allow all the processes we just did to catch up and then we do what's law of repetition. We do that over and over and over. The second we pick up a ring to ask for a one ring stop, and the horse stops his feet. His body automatically does it relaxes. That trigger is there by thinking and association of the one ring, stop the person relaxing, sending information or energy of relaxation, triggering the body response to relax. Then the restrictions in the mind free up. Then that connection gets stronger and then collectively over time, anytime my horses start to disconnect and mind to body. I can reconnect it. It's z fast. It's like plugging in an extension cord, you know? Oh, their, their brain and their body are starting to disconnect put it in and then I can tape it. I can get duct tape on it so it doesn't come apart it's one of those things. Whenever we sit down and start analyzing ourselves in thought, emotion, attitude, action. Understand there are two pathways of communication. Breathing, heart rate, horse can hear our heart rate from three to four feet away. So when I'm on his back, he can hear that. If my heart starts beating faster and I feel that I will change a thought present to my horse to help my heart rate come down, help my body relax, sends information to the horse so he can do the same thing, and then vice. You know, I'll get horses that are new. I got one in two days ago and his heart rate came up, his body got tense, his breathing got erratic. And then I just present to him and then he started getting it. He's like, oh. So thinking and association of whatever it is can trigger a, we could call it negative or positive, but it can trigger a response, desirable or undesirable. So that smiling I'm glad you brought that up, cuz I teach that in, in class. Some people get real serious, especially these military folks, they get real serious at trying to learn how to, to do their hands, how to do their legs. And then I'll say one rain stop, trigger responsive relaxation. They'll do all that and then they'll look at me and I'll tell'em, just smile and then they will, and they're like, yeah, I'm having fun. I don't know why I'm so serious, but it's just, Sometimes there's a little restriction there or there's, there's a little barrier. And then consciously doing something to trigger what you really want to happen to follow. And that's thinking and association of those things. So you smile, your body's recognizing it, your subconscious is recognizing it. So then all we gotta do is consciously do it enough to where it just becomes natural. So I'm glad you brought that up. That's good.

Ronnie: 1:01:07

You're very welcome. You're very welcome. My other thing I used to do with my first horse she was called Ferry and she was owned by, I don't know whether you'll know these people, but Jerry and the Pacemakers, have you heard of them? No, no. They're an English group from way back and they bought a racehorse and she was a yearly, so they called her Ferry Across the Mercy. That was the famous song of theirs. So her name was Ferry and. She was a racehorse so she went from stop to Gallup. There was no in between bits when I first got her and I'm a novice. So we used to just walk out. We used to walk and do trots walk and trot. That's all we used to do. We used to go out hacking and I remember the first time that I cantered on her and I totally trusted her cuz I knew her and she knew me and it was the most magical experience. We went in an open field, there was a hedge at the end and I was thinking, well, if she doesn't stop, she'll jump in. And I was hoping that she'd stop or slow down. And we caned and it was just, oh God, it was amazing. But she didn't make the cut as a racehorse because she would catch up to the horse. So she would be at the back and she would go really fast. But soon as she caught up to the first horse that she come into contact with, she would pace at that level. She wouldn't go past that horse. So for me, that was perfect. Yeah, because I knew she wasn't gonna just try and, and take off. But what we used to do is If I could feel myself getting nervous cuz it was somewhere different or I could, I could just feel some tension within myself. I used to sing, no, I can't sing, but I used to sing Fairy Cross The Mersey and her little ears would be going, and I'm sure she was saying by the 20th time, oh, not that song again.

Justin: 1:03:05

Well that's exactly what I would do too. And in thinking an association of things, whenever we sing, it's generally because of joy. I don't know of anybody that sings, no. It's for joy and, and I would get into a position with my horse as a kid and I wouldn't know what to do. So I would do that I would just start singing to him. And it was very powerful because he would relax, but it was me, I relaxed and presented that to him and then he observed that. And then, you know, he took in that information or energy and it was very calming and I can't sing either, so.

Ronnie: 1:03:44

But you can't hold your breath when you're singing. I mean you can feel the self tense, you know and you shallow breathing and sometimes you are holding your breath cuz you're listening for something or expecting something to happen. And if you start singing however bad that may be, you can't hold your breath. So you, you breathe a little bit and they have a sigh of relief cuz there's not a solid bottom on their back. There's a bit more movement. Exactly. Okay, so we've been going for an hour, is there anything else that you'd like to chat about? What have you got? Oh, actually before then sorry, I'm interrupting you now three times this has come into my awareness and I've no idea why I wanna say this to you but there's a real buzz of excitement and it's with your horses around what's going on but there's a buzz of excitement and three times it's come in and you was talking so I didn't want to interrupt you. Is this something that you are planning or is this something at your facility, but there is a buzz of excitement about something that's coming forward?

Justin: 1:04:49

Well, the, the book I've been pretty excited and, you know, focused on getting the book out. So I'm hopeful and that's probably not the best word, but I, I can see that there's something big coming in the benefit of horsemanship humanity because the things I get to do, and I didn't even mention a lot of the things they're in the book and I want to keep that find out but I, I tell some stories in. Transformation for people. They were in a very dark place, and then they, they found light through horses in a very short amount of time. You know, 15 to 17 hours. I get to see some of the most beautiful transformations, and that's just two hours a week. So not very, not very much time in, in the sense of time, but the thing that's probably big is that hopefully this book will get into the right hands and some things that really need to shift will, will shift the way people think of horses and look at horses. I think this will be an eye-opening book because horses were a lot of utilitarian type, you know, treated as equipment a lot of ways. Today, I don't think that's needed. I mean, I know it's not needed, but it's one of those things. There's only 2.5 million horse owners in the United States, so we have 330 million people. There's only 9 million horses in the United States. So accessibility. You mentioned accessibility. It is easier but it's not on those type numbers. You know, I can count at least five people that have come through my gate in the last two years that have never pet a horse. And never would've ever considered horse therapy or horsemanship horse communication. Nothing. Nothing like that. You know, these are 15, 17 year Army active duty personnel and just never had accessibility to horses. Whenever the book gets out, I'm hoping that this will go to every horse rescue in America. I hope it'll go to every private school. I hope it'll go to every public school to teach in a horsemanship class. Cuz they could pick any level. They could stay at level one, doesn't matter. They can go all the way up to level five, but it's, it's a door that's there that's got to be open and enough people walk through it. They can realize, oh wow, there is a whole other side to horsemanship and horses that we don't know about. Cuz a lot of the things they see are on tv, you know, rodeo, barrel racing, horse racing, whatever. My book I may not ever see the fruits of the labor of this book in my lifetime, which is fine but a hundred years from now, I kind of envision that this long-term sustainability of horses will be what's in this book, not what people are seeing, you know, on tv. The humanity, in my opinion, these are all my opinion. Okay. Statistics are 150 million people, or 160 million people live paycheck to paycheck. They're at a time in their life where they're very frustrated where are they gonna turn? That type thing. And it compounds in all other realms, religion, spiritualism, whatever. There's a lot of people that are not diagnosed with mental illness, but there's 54 million Americans diagnosed with mental illness some form. So like horse racing is not gonna fix somebody's mental illness I mean, and, and it's just not, and what I wrote in the book. Will it, it will it. I do it for myself, so I know it works. Every individual, every one of'em, a hundred percent success rate that's come in here and implements this has turned their life around. They come out of a dark place into a light, and they have a new perspective on life. Real life, not what we see on the news, not, not what the guy's doing out there next to you. No real life. When you're in the quiet space of your own self, the reality is, is what they learned and horsemanship, because horses bring you back into nature, bring you back into what's real. And it's so true and honest. The body recognizes it very quick. The mind has a little trouble, but it comes along. But it's one of those things where, If you're feeling that type of energy. My horses have been a part of it. Each and every one of them, they've been a contributor to development of this book, this school, and transforming those lives that those individuals that came here. So they're buzzing, man, they're like we were the guys, we're the team. You are the team. Y'all did it. You're the ones. So that may be what you're picking up on. Do you know what, because they're excited as I am.

Ronnie: 1:10:12

Yeah. I think it is and horses talk in a collective manner as well they don't just converse independently. And that's the benefit of all, that's the benefit of all horses and humans alike. And anything that can help, even if it's just one person. But I know it's gonna reach a lot of people, but if you can change one person to let them see. They're special and they can change their life, but they have to just look within themselves and start to acknowledge what's there and to adjust what they need to adjust so that they can present a different aspect of who they are. We're all very good at hiding behind masks and what we think we should be and what we think people want to see. And nine, 10 times that other person probably doesn't even wanna see that, but we perceive that to be the way. Anything that can start that process of opening somebody up to themselves and to make a change, to make even a little change is worth, its weighting gold. So I think your passion comes through in this and your horses and you've got such a big heart. As I've said before, and I was smiling because I forgotten. I remember doing ground time with Toots and she's, she's 21 now. When I first was introduced to you and she still remembers that I can drop the rope. I might not do a lot of else with her. Justine, I can drop the rope and she remembers that. And I think I used to do the one rain stop, which I actually used, and that was a long time ago. And it worked. It worked. We did a smaller circle instead of the horse falling over, she knew to bend. She didn't brace against it and so I was smiling when you mentioned that cause I thought I remember that. I remember that.

Justin: 1:12:08

Yeah. Yeah. It's a benefit to the horse, to the human. It's life enrichment for both that's the whole purpose of horsemanship in the first place is life enrichment upgrade and these things that we get to, that I get to witness the horses do for people I can't do it for the people. Neither can the horses really. The person has to do it themselves. They have to do their own pushups. I I tell these guys cuz they understand that, you know, so I can't do their pushups for them. You know, the, the thing about what I see horses teach people is helps them find three things that, that they have to know in life in order to live a successful life, a fulfilled life. And the three things that I see horses help people understand is that they do have a purpose. And then that there's a systematic way to follow a flexible plan. And then the only thing they have to do is take action and be willing to not be perfect. You know, a lot of our military personnel that come out here, they, they think they gotta be perfect. I mean, the jobs that they. Do require a lot of them and have kind of brainwashed them into you do this. Perfect. Perfect. Perfect, perfect, perfect. Well, when I teach horsemanship here, I was like, there's no such thing as perfect. There's no such thing as perfection. It's progression progress. Progression. We just want to progress. Every living organism on earth wants to advance in progress, so horses understand when a person has got a plan and they're taking action to fulfill a certain purpose, they step up and aid them in, in doing that, and then they develop an understanding of how it works. So they'll have a minor purpose. And it could be something simple as taking the horse from cone A to cone B and then have, have, have that thought, have the purpose. Implement it with through a plan by taking action. And then once they accomplish point A to B, then do the next one and then compound it, and then they start to create a habit and it gets solid to where their subconscious picks up on that and they go, oh. So when we identify the purpose, we can create a plan and keep it flexible. I always stress flexibility in a plan and then take action. That's how you train a horse. That's how you build a relationship. That's how you ride a book. That's how you build a house. That's how you do whatever it is we are called to do on this planet. Just do those three things. And it's not hard. We will complicate it. Oh man, we can do that. But breaking it down into tiny little pieces when horsemanship. When I referred to, I'll ask a horse to back up one hoof at a time that's kind of breaking it down into tiny pieces. I could ask the horse to back up, that's no problem, but break it down into tiny pieces. I've gotta think it, so I gotta see it and then I gotta do it. So the horse does the same thing. Once we interact in that manner, those things that we didn't know before, the horses filling in the uncertainties, the information that we didn't have, and helping us think and do those three things each and every time we're together. Whether it be first interaction grooming for mindset level one or a level five rider that's got 60 hours of with this horse and they're out riding in nature and an extended feedback loop. There's a purpose, there's a plan. They're taking action and it's broken down into tinier pieces. To accomplish minor purposes. And then it's thinking in the combination of things to accomplish a bigger purpose. And then once a person gets clarity on that they can fix anything within them and around them they realize what they can control and what they can't control, and they're fine with both. That's the clarity horsemanship brings to the human, especially when they're in an erratic, chaotic state, disconnected from mind and body, not aware of what their actions are presenting to the rest of the world. And feeling attacked whenever it's called upon, called to their attention. When a person can go and interact with a horse and then slowly get evidence of what they need to know to make changes, then when a person does say, Hey you're doing, you're doing x. They can compensate and maybe have new coping mechanisms to address it than they had before, rather than coming off top rung at somebody, they know how to scale it from one to 10. We'll, I'll respond at a two rather than an 8 because the same thing with a horse. We've gotta feel that horse, that individual, provide proper pressure, proper time, proper response, meaning ask the proper question at the proper time to get the desirable response. Same thing. So how do we do that? Well, we have to check in here, present it, observe, make changes, do it again. Once collectively, over time that's developed, you have that ability and skill to do it anywhere you go, with anybody you meet. Perfect, perfect explanation. Your Facebook group, that still goes, you said that earlier. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what I'll do is, I'll post links so people can have a look at that and also your website. So if they want to contact you, which is the best place. The best place is probably email or go to my website cuz then they can play around on the website and they can actually join my Facebook group through my website, actually pay through there and then ask to join in Facebook and then I add'em in. I've taken the small break from posting a lot of things in there cuz there are so many videos in there now. But we are scheduled to start. Doing more videos in the future, kind of waiting on the book to come out, and then that's just gonna be the topic.

Ronnie: 1:18:10

Yeah. Exciting times and your horses are definitely excited yeah I think that's what it is, the buzz of what's gonna come from that because horses don't have timeframes like we do. No yeah so they're probably aware of what's coming in certain areas that more than we are. It's been fascinating chatting with you, Justin and it's so lovely to catch up with you again yeah. And I can't wait for your book to come out so I can have a read of it. Soon as it does, if you send me a link and then I'll put that on my page and then people can get to it from there as well. Is there anything that you'd like to say, any piece of information that you think would help anybody whether they've got horses or not before you go?

Justin: 1:18:54

Yeah, what I'm about to say is the probably most wisdom based comment I've ever said in my life. Are you ready? Oh God. Yeah. Go on. Okay, here it comes. Horses don't wear a watch, so they always have time.

Ronnie: 1:19:11

You don't say, that's where I've been going wrong oh my God. Oh do you know what I haven't worn a watch for years I haven't. It's been lovely Justin if you'd like to say goodbye and then I'll pop you out and then I'll just have a little quick chat with you before you go.

Justin: 1:19:30

Well, bye everyone. I don't even know how many of you're here, but thanks for coming and watching our show.

Ronnie: 1:19:36

What a lovely guy. I was so looking forward to chatting with him and I can't wait to read his book. I remember being in his group and it was very, very helpful because I hope it come across when he was explaining, but he breaks things down really easily and it's easy to understand, interpret. So when he was talking about your mindset and how that affects your body and everything else it helped me when I was on my own with my horse and you haven't got anybody nearby, so you need some help, some guidance and Justin was one of the first people that I came across and so I will be forever grateful for that experience and it still stands today and I haven't done that for ages, but it was fun to remember. Thank you very much for the people that joined. I do hope you enjoyed this little conversation with Justin. I shall post all the links so you can reach him and if you've got any questions that you'd like to put to Justin, I'm sure I'll be happy to answer If you can Thank you very, very much. Take care and speak to you soon. Bye for now.