Interview with Dr Tomas Teskey - www.insighttoequus.com

Interview with Dr Tomas Teskey - www.insighttoequus.com
Second time lucky!
After our first attempt (which didn't get off to a good start due to technical issues and mosquitoes) I'm very pleased to announce f an interview with Dr Tomas Teskey from  Arizona USA.

It was my lovely regular podcast guests Scout and Michelle from "Scout's trail" who suggested I contact Tomas to see if he would like to be a guest and I'm very pleased to say he said yes, so thank you Scout and Michelle for your recommendation.

Tomas has a wealth of knowledge and he is very passionate about about his work, horses and how we can help them and ourselves with a little more understanding of their needs. A little step can go along way and It always starts with one step at a time.

So sit back, relax and I hope you enjoy this episode for an interesting and enlightening conversation, around everything horse related and so much more.

Dr Tomas Teskey.
Dr. Tomas Teskey is a human, native to Arizona and the second oldest of five siblings in a six-generation ranching family. He received a Bachelor’s degree in Botany from Northern Arizona University in 1991, and Doctor of Veterinary Medicine degree from Colorado State University in 1995. He has practiced large animal medicine and surgery in Arizona since graduation, with the majority of his work focusing on horses.

Taking a special interest in equine podiatry since 2001, he became a passionate supporter or the barefoot performance horse, and published “The Unfettered Foot, A Paradigm Change for Equine Podiatry”, in the Journal of Equine Veterinary Science in February, 2005. This sparked greater attention, discussion and interest within the veterinary community about the benefits of a more holistic and natural approach to hoof care versus the more antagonistic approaches of conventional farriery. Numerous other articles have continued to explore these not-so-new ideas.

Dr. Teskey originally learned to shoe horses as part of normal ranching duties and conventional veterinary care, and now focuses on developing equine management programs that nurture a happy human-horse partnership.

Applying the principles of holistic hoof care to his horses, he has learned valuable, on the ground lessons from the horses themselves, which now enjoy greater soundness and vitality, working in the same rough Western terrain as previous generations.

With superior health and soundness as a goal, he is a leading veterinary authority on the equine hoof and barefoot performance horse, is dedicated to continued research in hoof care, and is happiest supporting horse owners in their efforts to achieve honest soundness by holding lectures and workshops on horse and hoof care worldwide.

He lives on the family ranch in Arizona with his wife Csenge and four children.
https://www.insighttoequus.com
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Contact Ronnie.
mailto:equinevoicesronnie@gmail.com

Transcript

Ronnie: 0:11

Hello and welcome to Equine Voices. My name is Ronnie. I am so, so pleased to have Thomas back. Now we tried to do this interview in summer when he was in Europe, but he was getting eaten alive by mosquitoes and we had a few technical problems then. Anyway, I shall bring Thomas in and he can introduce himself. He's Dr. Thomas Teske and his website is Insight to Equus. He's a vet of medicine from Colorado State and he specializes in equine podiatry. 2001. I'll let Thomas come in and introduce himself. So without further ado, here he is. Hi Thomas.

Tomas: 0:53

Hey, doing well. So where to begin since I have been given full reigns to tell you what I would like to tell you. Well, first of all, in the moment I drove up to a high spot so I can get a good signal because I live pretty much. In the center of the desert in Arizona and central Arizona. So I had to go up and find a good signal so I can do the podcast with you in this talk, and I can look out and see where my horses might be. They might appear, they might not. It's kind of interesting to be up here on the landscape doing this instead of in the house or in the library or whatever, so yeah, and. You know, I was thinking about that recently. It's been, it's been 28 years since I graduated from Colorado state university. And when I finished up school, I came back to Arizona and I practiced for 10 years on basically anything and everything. I was just hoping somebody would call me so I could make some money. And then after about five to 10 years, I was. It's really focusing more on the equine part of the whole practice and finding that to be my calling. So, what else about me? I would say that most importantly, I have a personality and a drive and or a wherewithal to basically call it out the way I see it. I try to be as diplomatic as I can be with people and with colleagues and I think I'm getting better at that but I would say that I don't like to beat around the bush a whole lot. I don't like to hem and haw around what I've learned in my calling has been more and more focused lately. What it seems to me is focusing my interests, my passion, what I'm really interested in creating a calling around a voice for the horses. What would that sound like? What would they say? What do they need? You know, we humans are the ones that are bringing horses into our orbit, right? I mean, we know they were a feral and still are wild and feral examples on the planet of quis, horses and donkeys. Zebras and, but the domestic horse is basically 100 percent dependent on what we can provide for them so that translates to 100 percent responsibility for us to know enough to provide what they need. What determines what they need? What do you have to know? You have to know something about their nature. Where did they come from? Why are they shaped that way? Why do they do that? Why do they move like that? Why do they behave like that so the more you study, And I'm talking about studying the horse. I'm not talking about studying farriery or saddle fit or training or bridling or driving horses, nothing like that. I'm talking about studying what. The horse is at their foundation, just naked hoarseness. What does that tell you about how they came to be shaped the way they're shaped and what can we do with our domestic horses in captivity? And even mine, you know, I'm here on the ranch in central Arizona on 5, 000 acres. That's still confinement and I recognize that absolutely as confinement because why they can't migrate. There's a mountain range over here. There's a mountain range back over this way, but they can't migrate there and I guarantee you they would. They've tried a couple of times when somebody left the gate open, for example, and they end up miles away. But even large spaces that we have for our horses, we have to develop a sense of knowingness and compassion and relate. It's about relating to what they need to not just get by, but thrive. That's what we want. Why do we want them to thrive? Because look at that. I mean what draws you. What makes you so interested? What are you curious about? What is that energy? What is that spirit, that free expression that they have? We're very attracted to that and we want to get close to that. We want to co mingle with that, even co create with that. And it's, it's exciting. It's alluring. It's attractive. And the sad irony is that. We place horses into situations where that becomes not only handicapped, but completely disabled. So, Once you're aware of what happens, you would be like, well, what can I do to bring that back? Nurture that. What can I do to nurture that freedom of expression and fire and energy that I'm so attracted to in Equus, right? So I finally wrote a book about it and it has little bits of everything some science, some stories, sOme statistics on some of my work with dentistry and hoof care and a little bit of something for everybody. It's called Insight to Equus, since you're here with me and we have this. Gathering, I'll let you in on a little bit of a secret about the title of Insight to Equus. And I allude to it basically on the title page of my book and I break up the word insight to two words in sight or within sight. So if I have you in my sight, that means I see you. If I have a landscape or a herd of animals or an audience of people within my site, that means I have you right here within my awareness, within my, within my bubble of what we're doing moment to moment. And when horses have each other and other humans that they feel comfortable with in their site. You will start to orbit together. You will start to feel together. You will start to reflect things back and forth to each other. Just like you do in conversation with your children or your spouse or your friends. Or your own horse, perhaps you know what I'm talking about when you're out there and talking to your horse and it's funny. A lot of times I'm, I'm working on a horse that I've been called to see and I'll be in a bit of a conversation with them and I'll be asking them questions and. Making little comments and sometimes I'll be in a, a juvenile voice or a different kind of voice or just a regular talking voice. And so many times the people around or the client will be like, what was that? What did you say? And it'll, it'll bounce me out of my space with the horse. And I'll have to tell them I was just talking to the horse or we were just talking about this foot here, or, Oh, we were just talking about what they ate this morning or, so it's been really fun to try to do both things at the same time. Like when I get with a horse or a couple of horses and I'm working with them and of course the owner is there and wanting to learn and I'm wanting to show them and, but I'm also talking to the horse at the same time. You really have to see it to appreciate it. And I do plan to try to get some good help with some videos at some point to show what that looks like, because it's so different from having a horse in a pair of stocks or in a clinic in a sterile environment, you know, with them heavily sedated or tied up tight or confined extra tight. Basically my approach has been, I was going to say quite different, but it's, it's, it's a world's different how I like to be around people and their horses with space, having their friends around, maybe having something to get their mouth on nibble on now and then. Space to move if they feel like they need to move. So just in that last few seconds, I gave you some of the main ingredients about what I've learned feeds the nature of the horse. What do they need? What are they hardwired for? Their friends, their her. What is the herd? What is the collective? It's, it's collective consciousness. And sometimes we can get a sense of this. Other times we get so in pain or so caught up with what's happening in life that we, lose touch with that. And that's probably why we like to find a friend to talk to, or we like to go out with our animals or take the dog for a walk or just go out and sit with the horses to, it. To regain some of that stream of herd belonging, herd consciousness, you know, imagine a space where you can do no wrong, where, we've got you, we have you in sight. You're part of the herd and you're within sight and it's okay. That's powerful. And it really speaks to what we want. People who are really interested in helping Equus develop a partnership with humans on this planet. Step up. This is me ringing the bell and I hope that once we ring the bell, we can't unring it because what's happening is. Is important. And it's so important for us as people to, to latch onto this. I can't help the number of horses. I would love to help unless I can reach you unless I can speak to your heart and mind to take this and go and further advance this Set of ideas that speaks to nurturing the nature of the horse, their friends, the herd. What else do they need? They need a grass based nutrition. Why? Because that's what they evolved on. You might not be amazed to learn that horses cannot digest grass. Like, what do you mean by that? Well, what I mean by that is inside their gut. Are trillions of microorganisms that are in place in a symbiotic relationship and have been there for millions and millions of years to help horses digest forage, grass, tree leaves, brush, bark minerals, clay, whatever they could get their mouth on, right? Talk about an oral creature. Horses get their mouths on everything so they're feeding the micro flora. So when I say grass based or forage based nutrition, that's what I mean by that. So that's second. We had the herd, we got grass based nutrition, space. Look at the athletic shape of this animal. I mean, if you were a, if you're a paleontologist and you dug up a skeleton of a horse or even one part, even one cannon bone was all you could find. I guarantee you, because I've talked to them and I know some of them, they talk about these structures speak. Speed on landscape, everything about this length of this bone, this articulation, the joint, the range of motion speaks to moving at high rates of speed and open spaces. How would they know that? I mean, isn't that kind of a, a leap that doesn't seem like it would be possible. It absolutely is possible. They absolutely are correct. And, and we know that because we can observe horses on the landscape. We know what they're capable of going 40 miles per hour, or going straight up in the air or twisting and turning and rearing up with each other and so what kind of spaces do we provide for that? What would you think would be minimum space requirements for not just one horse, right? Because now, now we're adding to the herd. So a herd is two or more, the more the better. Don't ever ask me if you should get another horse because I'll say, oh yeah, you need, you need to get a bunch more. I like four, four members in a herd is getting to be much better than two or three. One is inappropriate. Okay, let's just call it out. Here's the personality coming out for you maybe you should hear the words out of a guy with letters after his name doctor of veterinary medicine It's like okay, that's fine but as soon as I can let you know that I'm also human the better the fact is that yeah I spent a lot of money and a lot of time, you know, becoming a veterinarian and practicing and now we're 28 years into it and here's what it sounds like inappropriate to keep a horse by themselves. And now you know why, because they're hardwired. If you measured stress hormones and other markers in horses that are kept by themselves, that biochemistry and those blood tests would be screaming at you. Screaming stress before I get off on a tangent there let's get back to the list because we have the herd, we have grass based nutrition, we have space and what else might you think would be important for nurturing The nature of the horse in domestication now, now we have them in our backyards on our track systems on our farm areas. What do they need? Well, they need hoof care and dental care. We need to intervene. Why? Because lack of space, lack of migration, lack of having a baby every year, lack of having stallions around. Now, some places in the world do. You know, I was in the UK again for the second time recently with Amy up there in Nottinghamshire and we're getting together and doing clinics and so maybe I get to see you if you're a UK person on online or see this in the future. Fact is you have limited space and you have a lot of, a lot of calories on the ground. So you have no problem providing grass forage without the movement and creating the demand to use that forage, you end up in trouble. So we have lack of movement, which, how does that show up in their feet? They grow too long. You know that your fingernails and horses hooves grow too long if you're not out there digging in the dirt or breaking them off or wearing them. They call that exfoliation. So, I have horses here that are self trimming. I have horses I can show you that I have not touched a tool to their feet in 15 to 18 years now. Very cool. Beautiful. I mean, just the picture of health and just flying by and they just say, see ya. I don't have time to talk today. I'm just, you know, sometimes they do want to talk, but other times they're like, no, I'm very busy. He didn't get on the schedule fast enough. Feels like sometimes teeth, dental care. Why? Lack of grazing that green stuff that's growing in the UK that you feed the horses that they bite off and eat that. That's cream. That's soft. That's so soft. You know, I can show you some coarse grass or some cactus or some sticker bushes on the desert here. The high desert is actually the places on the planet that horses probably spent huge amounts of time evolving on. Not that they couldn't have migrated through parts of the UK, or from north to south But they couldn't have stayed there. Why? Why can't horses, during their evolution, just stay on the greenest place they find? Predators. Where's the predators? Sometimes I feel like I'm a predator. Sometimes when I see horses standing around too much, they're like, go, let's go move guys let's go. We gotta go. I'll eat you up with a smile on my face. So I want you to get aware of why it's important to keep them moving, address their feet. And how would you address their feet? You would want to trim their feet in a way that is complimentary. to their nature. How would they have done it themselves? Had they had the chance? What would their teeth look like if they had the chance to graze on a variety of coarse forages and brush and sagebrush and tree bark and mineral? Yeah, it just one of the limiting factors for lifespan here in the desert. is teeth wear. You won't see that in the UK. Hardly ever, but I see it here a lot horses that will wear their teeth out. You might be aware that horses have reserve tooth mass up inside their skull. They're not like our teeth that come in and stop. Horses can keep erupting their teeth about an eighth of an inch per year up until they're 20 25 years old. And so you can use files to adjust their teeth so that they meet in the middle, so the angles are correct. And most importantly, what you'll find out in the book is that With lack of grazing, their front teeth, the incisors, become too long. And what does that do? It forces their back teeth apart. So how frustrating would that be in a domestic situation? Your front teeth getting so long that you can't get your grinding teeth together very well. Another source of stress, right? So where's my herd? Where's my grass based nutrition? Where's the space for me to run? How come my teeth are in my way and too long? Why do my feet hurt because they're too long so, paying attention to these things, you win. Don't get into a Here's me This is my diplomatic encouragement for you. Don't get into a micromanaging situation if He can help if, if you need to fall apart, then call Ronnie, call me, call somebody who knows, because you know we can pace with that. You need your herd too. When you're going through your trials and tribulations, getting this all figured out. But the take home point is don't micromanage with every tiny little thing. Pay attention to the big things that you need space, nutrition, hoof care, dental care, space to run, friends. Got to have the herd got to, I can give you dozens of case studies where it wasn't until somebody got sick horse or that foundering horse or that metabolic crisis horse, a friend or two, when they plateaued out of their illness and finally could get better, could finally heal. Why? Because I can't heal horses. I know a lot of stuff. I cannot heal horses. What can I do? I can encourage people to provide what horses need to heal. Big, big difference is that responsibility part. Again, here's that part where you have to have that gentle kick in the butt, that empowerment to provide what they need to maintain health and or heal. So That's a pretty big nutshell of where I'm at now with my calling, my passion, my interest in providing the best of the best information that I can to people to be successful, to not micromanage and why does it matter? Let's let's kind of circle right back around just for a couple minutes and talk about why it matters because we're attached because we're learning what it's like. To really love animals, love ourselves enough to make this happen, right? This is where it's at. This is why it matters. You can get me started on more and more stories about the little kids that come up to me when their pony is sick with all of their ideas about what that little pony needs to survive the illness. And just heart wrenching stories that I could tell you about how I showed up too late. They were a collect. They were founded beyond my ability to save them at the time they were diabetic. They were just In a metabolic state that was so far down the drain that it was going to be very difficult to get them back out because now they can't move. Now they're uncomfortable. Now they're toxic. You know, that's why it matters. You gotta be preventing that sort of despair and going down the drain so when I see subtle signs of it happening, I'm like ringing that bell, ringing that bell. Hey, Hey, Hey. You see the crest on this neck. You see these fat pockets, this trend towards obesity, you see this lameness, how about these teeth? You see how they're crooked here or too long here? What about that toe length there? Why is that allowed to be like that? I mean, that's, that's affecting your foundation. You're getting bone remodeling. You know, the coffin bones only last so long, hopefully 30 to 40 years with inadequate or ignorant care ignorant just means you didn't know, right? You can't accomplish this if you don't know, I would never blame you for doing something unless you knew the difference. So this is about sharing the difference, training people's eyes. So when you get on my Facebook page or you look at my book, it's all about eye training. Here's this one and here's this one. Can you see it? Okay. Let's get the ruler out. Let's get the arrows going so I can show you this right here. See that? And then you won't unsee it. You can't unring the bell and you can't unsee it. I hope. Why else? You know did you know that people in domestic violence situations have very poor ability to relate to animals. I mean it's very, very common. So from a young age, all the way up through adolescence and into adulthood, if you're not in a situation, or if you were modeled by other adults in situations to mistreat or abuse, or just, just be with animals in a way that was highly master slave type, kind of opposite of partnership. Okay. So I grew up on these Western ranches. I've worn the cowboy hat a lot. It can very much speak that language. Which is good because now I can communicate with cowboys, which I do all the time. It's pretty fun and you know, I can meet people where they are. But I also imagine where we're headed with this and with my young children right now, age six, four and two, three year olds, they're not going to know what that's like. Very cool. Very cool that that would pretty much be off their radar. Now it's not because they watch me fix horses constantly. It's so entertaining to hear the four year old, point to a horse's foot with a shoe on it or something strange about, and she'll say, it's not right, that's not right and they're just. beautiful honesty around it. So you could very well guess that I'm not in favor of shoeing horses or using bits in horses mouths. And it's the same song, second verse. It disrespects the nature of the horse. What are they capable of? What are they capable of with their Reflexes in their body parts and their nerve sensations intact. So whenever you interfere with what you think you need to do to accomplish a certain thing, I have another idea or maybe a few ideas for you. And if I can get my toenail in the door with you, or if you can ask a question. That's all I need. I'm not going to come down your street with a sign saying, no, I'm not doing that anymore. If you have a question or you're having an issue and you need some help, And can ask a question or make an inquiry, then we'll go, then I'll come, then I'll get in the door with you and, and we'll go from there. The magic of getting people to hook up a little bit with this is to at least give them a sense of why it matters, why it's important and I can point to their own animals every time. You know why it's important, because Blackjack over here has not been sound going on four, five years now. Or Susie Horse over here has had this metabolic problem going on for six, seven, eight years now. And you've tried everything, right? Except you haven't tried extra space and having the herd and having nutrition and working through the minerals and the proper dental care and hoof care so pretty critical to Reach these people on from where they're at and what they have in front of them. That's what I mean by meeting people where they're at. So I think with that I feel pretty good about if somebody has any questions or maybe Ronnie, if that sparks any questions in your mind about what we're doing here and where we're going with all this because that's what i'd like to do is just go from there.

Ronnie: 29:48

i've got lots of questions. A horse's strength is immense. And even from a Shetland, a tiny horse, if they wanted to drag you down the field, down the road, they would do, if they wanted to kill you, they could do literally, they have so much strength in them and the fact that they. Don't the majority of the time until they get to a point where they need to be heard big time because they're not being listened to. They put up with quite a lot and they try to help us they try to show us in their way. Now you don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand a feel of somebody and it's the same for human to human. So if we did some of the things that we do with horses to another human being, they'd either walk up the door or would you get a buff in the face because it's not acceptable but yet we think that is for an animal. Now I could go a lot deep into this because of what they give me, the information they share with me, but on a On a simple level, it's about having respect for a fellow soul, a fellow energetic being sharing this planet with us, and they are doing their best to live their life the way they should be, and we should be doing the same with us, and they are so good at showing us in lots of different ways that we're not listening to our own guidance, our own knowing that what's right and what's wrong. And by that, I don't mean like you're doing that wrong and you're doing that right. They're trying to show us, look, there's another way. There's another way that you can see me there's another way that you can work with me. There's another way that I can do as you ask, if you just listen to what I need, my requirements. So I think that goes with what you just said, Thomas, but in a slightly different way. Does that make sense to what I've just said to you?

Tomas: 31:50

Yeah. I liked the way that you, you presented and put that. The fact that something else about the nature of the horses is. Some people talk about them being a prey animal, for example, or certain behaviorists can talk about them being more of a reactive type of animal instead of a predatory or whatever but it feels like what you are speaking to and what I would appreciate about that is wouldn't they be just about the perfect entity, the perfect set of souls on the planet to help us with that perspective because we can and we have dominated them for 5, 000 years or so they were the motor of the day. Horsepower, you know, absolutely they are not every individual, but the vast majority of them can be. enslaved, if I can use a term or put upon or used beyond a level that They would have been in partnership or chosen to be involved with. I think that that's pretty self evident. So if we can create a space to be with that, because I'm not somebody who's going to tell you don't ride your horse or don't do this or don't do that, what I would like is where's the invitation. Where do you circle up with your horses and have a discussion? Literally again, it's a discussion I have with my horses. When I go out there to try to catch one of them to go move some cows, because we still have cows here in central Arizona that we're managing. So it's pretty funny if you had a hidden camera on me you'd think that's not a cowboy or he's the cowboy that never really was. In fact, I can tell you that evolving within our lifetime. And what it sounds like you're saying is they're the perfect herd of animals to help us attain that perspective of how do you want to proceed? How do you want to go from here? Because People do get hurt. People do have their hearts and minds just broken over horses, right? So attached to them. So that's kind of what it sounds like. What you're saying is they would be in the perfect position to help us with that.

Ronnie: 34:28

Absolutely what they just give me now is adaptability they are not afraid and they are not closed to adaptability. So in different places they have a different role and the wild horses that run free, that is where they originated from. But they understand that in this time that is not always the case and each horse is individual. As long as the needs are met, that they have adequate nutrition that they need, the feed that they need, that they have shelter that they get to go out and they have companionship. Companionship they're saying can be from the humans, but they need to be in a place where they appreciate and are open to that. So it's about spending time with them. The biggest thing that I say to my clients is, If you have a horse and you see your horse three times a day and you feed your horse, you go to groom them, you go to do the stable or the shelter, that is not the same as just being in their presence with no intention to do anything apart from just being there. And the best thing is just to sit with them and just to watch them, but gently not intensely, but just gently and just feel what they're sending out to you. You can communicate with an animal. You do not have to be right next to'em. They can be in another field and they don't have to be looking at you, but they are still communicating as you know, with another horse. They're all eating the grass or whatever they're eating. They've all got the heads down. And then one. Horse may flick it see in a certain way and slightly raise its head and the other ones. It doesn't matter where they are. They will do the same. If a horse raises its head high, it will be a few seconds and all the others will do exactly the same. It's not just a visual thing. They are in tune with each other. And we as humans have that ability. But with all the noise and the chatter and external influences and distractions, we've forgotten how to do that. When we're with an animal or when we go for a walk in nature, that comes back to us. And it's that peace and grounding is the basis of everything. And that's where you start. Communication isn't always about what you hear, when there's a storm coming, you will hear the birds and there'll be lots of noises and then it will go quiet or the wind might just settle down. It might be really windy and the wind settles down, you know, something's on its way and the animals know it's something on its way and it's that quiet. There's so much communication in that stillness that it's not. something you can always put into words, but you can feel it. And it's that that has an influence on the physical being of a human and the physical being of, of an animal and horses, as we're talking about. Does that make sense?

Tomas: 37:29

Yeah, very much so. So they would help us get back in touch with. Some of those abilities that arguably we, we have those abilities also, and that would be, it would seem to be timely again in so many ways to, to feel into that and instead of, yeah, ultimate distractions everywhere. that we run into.

Ronnie: 37:58

But it's not about going back in time and wishing we were in a stone age or you know, when the horses were all wild, because we're not there. We're here, we're evolving and they are too. We're all evolving both physically and energetically. So what we have to try and find is a mutual ground where we can meet and Give and receive from each other, whatever that is, our needs met because as a human, that's what we're always asking. I want my needs met. I want, I want, and an animal is saying exactly the same, but you don't recognize what my needs are. So how can you recognize what your true needs are? Right.

Tomas: 38:42

We could make a list for what is in the nature of the humans to need, to thrive as well. As the veterinarian, I can give you some really good tips like I did on what they would need to show up in that way to help us out, to continue to help us out but in a partnership, instead of do it or I'll sell you at the auction and get a new horse. No, not like that that's not sustainable.

Ronnie: 39:13

I can share a little story with you if you like and then I think we'll just ask you a bit more about your UK trip and how people here responded cause I'm sure some of this that we're talking today must've come out in conversation in your trips because it's not just a few. There are a lot of people that are going in this direction and thinking about this and trying to change for the better yeah, there's a lot more people. So I went to see a client, this was quite a few years ago and I went to see a horse, it was a lovely lady. And I wasn't sure why I was there because when I went in to chat with the horse, what I was passing on to the carer saying if you did this and then as long as you allowed the space for healing, as long as you allow this time, then your dreams what it is you're trying to achieve achievable, but maybe not quite the way you was expecting.'cause she wanted to ride horse and do competitions and things. And I was saying this to the lady and it was almost like she was listening, but she was distracting. It wasn't anything to do what was around her. It was her thoughts, her own knowing why she was distracted but I didn't know this at the time, so I was carrying on with the communication and. There was a feeling of, I don't know, this is not really landed, I'm not sure why. So I carried on passing on the messages. And then all of a sudden, the horse stopped talking and all he said was, There isn't a right or wrong answer, it doesn't matter. Because I will think no less of this person, whatever her decision is and as soon as he said that I had this feel, I knew I didn't know exactly what, but I knew where it was going. So I passed this message on and then that's when the information came back and what it was is a vet had been to see the horse and this horse had been lame and in and out, in and out. And there was a path. that could have gone in one direction, but it would have meant a lot of financial worry, which the lady could not realistically achieve at that moment and the horse knew this. So the horse knew that she was not in a position to provide these certain things. Now, it doesn't mean to say that it would have totally worked, but the horse was saying, this is an option when he realized that It's not in her power and she's made her decision. He was releasing her and saying, it doesn't matter what decision you make it's fine. He was basically saying, if you want to let me go, that's fine too. And that was a big learning curve for me. So as soon as I said this, she gave me information about the vet and she said, He's given me this other option, but it is my choice. And what the horse was saying is, doesn't matter which one you choose. I know you're doing it because that's the only option you have at this time. Does that make sense, Thomas? So in a ideal world, if finances, money, you know that wasn't an issue. Then there's lots of other choices we could choose. Now, the horse was well aware that that wasn't an option at that moment, but there was no judgment, there was just an understanding from this energy, this horse that I was connecting to and that taught me a lot it taught me a lot.

Tomas: 42:53

Yeah, it's simple and profound, really, to just try to get into that space of non judgment, of trying to explain away or rationalize or name your poison when it comes to what the humans will. Try to do or justify or explain it's like, the horse is presented with the facts and, oh, that's the facts. The end. The end. There's no fear. No. Why would there be a reason to take that further? If that's the facts

Ronnie: 43:34

and on a human element, if we had that choice, yeah,

Tomas: 43:39

Would you like to do now? And does it look like to invite a horse or a herd of horses to show up a little bit differently? Is their environment so dead, dry bone, boring that they would have no reason to want to show up any differently? Or could somebody please do something to provide a little bit of habitat enrichment here so that they might? Be invited to show some fire or some spirit or some expression or bring a different smell or a different person, or just any change at all. Basically change the facts of the equation. What's the equation coming in these facts that you talk about? It seems to me that that is what we could present as a way to ask a question or extend the invitation for example.

Ronnie: 44:35

Yes. Maybe it's because we're scared of the answers.

Tomas: 44:38

Yeah.

Ronnie: 44:41

Because we're scared to the answers.

Tomas: 44:43

Absolutely. Yeah and we think, Oh, it's good enough, but is it, is it really good enough? So we have to ask the humans the question. Now we're right back to the humans. Like I say all the time, the horses can figure this out. They got this. You give them these three or four or five things that they need. They'll be more than fine. What do you need to get out of your rut to provide for that? Why are we talking about this? You know, for eight, nine, 10 years in a row, but you're not providing for that or not doing the minimal amount of research to present the, the facts, the different scenarios, the enrichment. to your horses to show you some cool stuff. Cause they will, they absolutely will show you the most cool stuff ever. And they just need a very few things in place to do that. Study the nature, study your nature, study the nature of the horse and Do your best to provide for that. And your best right now is not your best next summer. It's not. It better not be. Don't become complacent we call that some level of accountability or a gentle push or a nudge or encouragement or empowerment. Whatever it takes but I don't think it works very well to shame people into doing stuff that really short circuits, the energy that we're talking about so.

Ronnie: 46:33

No conversation like this is just. If anybody's interested or something in them resonate, then that's what it's about. It's not about following everything somebody does, but if they lead you into starting to listen to your own thoughts, your own little voice and your own understanding and knowing feelings, because you know, if you're doing something just to go into the motions, you know what it feels like but once you look at it and think, how would I feel if that was me? And sometimes people say, yes, but I'm not a horse. You're not a horse. No, but how would it feel? To you, if you were in a box for like nine hours and you got out to go for like an hour's walk and then you got back in again, where would your mind be, what, what would you be doing? If I'm in the house for a whole day, I feel closed in and pending in but again, it's not about. saying to somebody, well, this is how I keep my horse. This is how it's got to be. It's about understanding if that's how we keep an animal, we have to understand that with that comes consequences because it's not, a natural place for them to thrive mentally. It's just a place to be. And some animals as I said earlier They're all different, but they don't say, this is what I want, you know, total freedom because they understand that there becomes a partnership from being with a human. They understand that they get looked after they get fed, they get loved as long as they're listened to and they're Their concerns are felt and acknowledged, even if we can't change it straight away that it's acknowledged that's a big thing, so it's just a start. Treat an animal as you would a human, or treat an animal as you would like to be treated, with respect, with dignity, and Compromise it's not a this way or that way. It's about compromising. I feel we're going off the whole a different topic.

Tomas: 48:48

Yeah, but we're, we're getting down to the most foundational stuff here and it's a good starting point when you encourage people to feel into what that might be like for themselves. That's a great place to start, but it's absolutely not where you're going to stay. From what I've seen, because the better observer that you are, and we call that empiricism, empirical science, the oldest form of science on the planet is power of observation. Once you just open that box and then you start to watch what happens is you start to get answers to questions that you didn't ask. Think about that. You go out there and at first you're like, what do you guys need? What, what am I, I didn't do this. I did that way. I'm worried about this. And horses are like yeah, yeah, yeah and then you can evolve and move into a quieter space of just observe everything as a herd, become a herd member. Don't go out there with your predatory eyes, like you have been, or just your unconscious. You mentioned just kind of getting into a pattern of You know, three times a day, some people don't even realize that's what they're doing they're unconsciously unconscious. So the first step is to just become that spectator of yourself and like, Oh yeah, that's what I do. Okay. Now if you have some people on your side to say, yeah, yeah, go, go, go that's it. Then you wouldn't feel alone with that. But if you think you're weird or you think you're crazy, then just call me and I'll show you crazy. You won't feel alone and that's the good stuff that we can get into to move this further and, and raise the level of consciousness around it. Because I think like you said before, we really are capable of a herd perspective and not as selfish, not as egoic, not as so. Involuted in and hidden inside of us and it takes time, takes time to bloom and come out and be allowed to be expressed free expression. You know, look, watch, watch the horses. I'll bet, you know, of horses that are kind of shut down and really not very expressive. And now you could probably say why. Do their feet hurt? Is their teeth not work? Is their metabolism messed up? Do they have no space to move? Do they have no friends to rub up against and have somebody scratch their withers with simultaneously? If not, then now you know. So let's, let's scratch each other's withers here, right? That feels good.

Ronnie: 51:41

That's one way of putting it, Thomas.

Tomas: 51:43

Well, whatever it takes, get into that space of working collectively.

Ronnie: 51:52

Yeah. So definitely and it's never, like you said earlier it's never about sitting here and saying we are this and you should be doing this. What we're saying is there is another way and animals are saying that all the time. And they're all individual. They're all different as humans, but they, Definitely in my line of work, are looking for us to make changes, but within ourselves to recognize, so we had a little conversation before we started. And most people will totally agree that they will do more for their animals than they will themselves. They will notice things about the animals before they notice things within themselves. A lot of my clients, when animals are presenting something, there will be something similar within the client's physical too. Mm-Hmm. So if you're familiar with the mirror syndrome, you can say that's a reflection back of myself, and it is to a certain degree but it is on a physical, but it's more an energetic. So our energy changes our physical and it causes problems within our bodies as it does with animals, with horses. And if we can see how our mindset or our emotions our energy. If we are aware it can change how we physically feel, then we have an understanding how that affects a horse. And if you're riding a horse or with a horse, you can sense when their energy changes before it changes. Sometimes you can sense when they're picking up on yours before you've got to that point of escalated or higher energy. They can sense how you are before you even. and near them. They just pick up on your wavelength. They know how your energy is. Is it sparky? Is it smooth? Is it calm? Is it soft? Is it firm? They just know that energy because that's what they're used to with horses. They know if a horse is approaching them that they need to back off. They just know that, or to see if they're okay. We have that as humans, because we are animals too at the end of the day. We have that, but we ignore it because we have too many distractions. But it is there. And horses show us that if we connect to that and we start to understand what it is for ourselves, then we can start to see and acknowledge that in an animal before it gets to a point where it needs addressing. That's where we're headed. There'll be times when we won't need to ask for external help because it will be there. It won't be a thought, it will just be a knowing. As you walk out to a field, you can be poo picking, your horse comes up to you, you can be scratching its butt, and then for some reason your hand stays there. I know my attention is saying, Notice. It's not just my hand on the horse's butt for no reason, it's notice, my energy, what's it doing, where's it going, what's being asked of it. And you can either question it or you can just sit with it and just feel it, and then the horse will walk off and you carry on doing what you're doing. There's been an exchange there, there's been a communication. There's been a knowing and understanding, not on verbal terms, it's just a knowing of an energetic being interacting with another one.

Tomas: 55:28

Yeah. There's lots of examples like that, that we could invite people to try just to go out there and, and be there and we know that they're going to have all these questions going through their mind and all these wonderings and all of these queries and, and that's just where you're at with that. That's just. Something to sit with and the horses are again, not going to be in high judgment around that other than they might be like, eh, you're pretty prickly, or you're pretty slippery, or you're pretty full of your agenda today, or oftentimes let you know the healthiest horses, let you know the most though. I will say that that's something that you can really Count on which is a lovely thing because when you rub up against him and get in partnership with really, really healthy horses, think of, think of the horses that wouldn't necessarily depend on you for their very survival. You, you can find horses like this and you can actually set up little habitats around your own places to, keep the food available, the water available, the movement and just observe and watch the health and vitality and fire come into that herd structure and then be with that. If you have to go out there and read a book do that if you need a distraction like that But eventually I think what you're saying is to go out there and just be,be a human being not a human doing Out there would be quite revealing wouldn't it?

Ronnie: 57:09

Yes. Yes Just the same as if you go sit under a tree and just read a book or you're watching a butterfly or watching a bird or watching a cloud. Your senses start to expand naturally and, and then you pick up the frequencies of what's going on. You just pick up the vibes, the feel, and that's you listening and connecting to. yourself, your own feel, your own knowing Can make it as difficult or you can make it as simple as just what's it like to just go out, have a breath of air, just go and just feel that peace. Just, this is so lovely. And that's what it is. That's what, that's That's the nice sweet spot, then the information, then the knowledge, then the knowing, then the understanding comes through, but you have to start somewhere and it's just taking time out it's being selfish. You have to be selfish. You know, it's all right being of service and doing everything for everybody else, but what you're doing is you're avoiding your own needs. And horses want us to look at our needs because when we follow our true needs and by that I don't mean things. As needs, you know, I need a new pair of boots. It's not that it's what do I need for peace of mind? What do I need? To quiet in my mind. What do I need? Because in that place horses can communicate easier. They can't get through all that sparks and and chatter They need us to just be still, still enough for them to, and they have to know that we mean it too. It's like, yeah, we know you've said that before because what you're doing is I'm sitting here, I'm being quiet. I'm not getting anything because it's like. Why aren't I getting anything? He's like, but you're mine's not quiet.

Tomas: 59:12

Are some examples we might be able to come up with to give people a sense of what that is like and you can actually practice that. Just being with a couple of other people or a circle of people and just, you know, just. Listen, you can close your eyes or not, or you can sit or stand, but just be and feel if it's uncomfortable. Feel if. Here's your mind is saying, Oh, I should say something right now but it's more of a what emerges because stuff will show up in emerge and maybe you do want to say something. Maybe you do want to say, wow, look at that. Look at that tree and never noticed that before, or, or just being observance of. How the horses will show up yeah, it is a whole nother subject about how horses are more than willing to interact to greater or lesser degrees with us when we're putting themselves within their sight again.by choice, put yourself. Put yourself within sight of that. Put yourself within sight of somebody who can see you if you go out and you're an alcoholic and you hang out at the bar, that's going to have predictable results, probably. If you're wanting to do something different than, you know, look for a campfire or look for a smelly old barnyard with some. Horses with flies around and just sit with that for a while and, and see what emerges. See what putting yourself in sight of that might afford you, right? It's up totally up to you. I mean, do you have enough evidence yet in your life that what you're doing is working or not working? Just asking, it's a question for you to consider as consciously as you can is it working? Is it good enough? Are you good enough to, to want for that? How do you feel about upping the ante, about upping your game next level? You know, for you gamers out there who, you know, that's the next level, move up to a level of expertise around where you put yourself. Insight of those that will, Hmm, I would say lovingly nibble on you a little bit. It's like when I put a sick horse with other horses to heal, what I'm looking for is those other horses to be just like, you better move a little bit further away from me because you're the newcomer and yeah, I'll let you drink eventually, but not right now. And. This is my hay right here. So you're going to have to go eat over there and that's not personal that's like a nibble. That's like a little push. That's like a little shove. And then if you want to come back around and get together with me, head to tail or, you know, scratch my withers. Oh, that, that'd be all right until it's time to go get another drink and I get to drink first. But not you and that can change. So anyway I like speaking metaphorically sometimes like that so people can get what we're talking about with horse speak, with herd speak and getting yourself in sight of, of all that. So it's a, it's quite the feeling, isn't it? The words don't do a kind of justice. With it that I try, but it, it's really about a feel and a space and putting yourself in that to feel that.

Ronnie: 1:03:13

That was very good. Understood that if I didn't know horses, could understand that it was very visual. They're amazing. Creatures. Thomas, is there anything that you'd like to say to the viewers in the listeners? That they could do, to experience this from your point of view,

Tomas: 1:03:35

Well, I did, I did spend a lot of time and a lot of love and blood and sweat and tears putting together what I have put together in the book. So you can get that online or you can get a copy sent to you, anywhere in the world. And I think it's helpful to sit with some of the ideas that I put forward there, for here right now. I would encourage people to open up more space for their horses and I would also like to extend the invitation for them to trust their horses a little bit more to not self destruct, not. hurt themselves, not, not go out there and just do something untoward. Trust them a little bit more to, to be a horse and again, it's more about letting go of some of that micromanagement. With respect to UK, I know you have a lot more rain and Mud and that sort of stuff over there. Then I have to deal with. So I would encourage you to save up some money for some gravel and make a space for your horses to get high and dry and maintain that. Place because it really pays big dividends with their hoof health and they like it. They like the feel of the, the gravel it needs to be, you know, 10 or 15 centimeters thick we don't want pebbles on a hard surface, like marbles on a hard surface that doesn't feel good I'm talking about a depth of crushed rock or gravel to. That becomes mandatory, I realized. I've been to Australia, UK, Southeastern U. S. Oregon coast of the U S it's rainforest and appreciate that horses would not choose to be there long term. They might migrate through there, but they don't choose to live there. It's an inappropriate environment to be in all the time. So what you have to do is help your environment out a little bit by getting some of that. Rock hauled in there. So you call up the landscape company or you, you start hauling some stone and some gravel to your place and put it in an area where they have to move across it. So what else would I say? I could talk to you about any one of these subjects for days and days. So yeah,

Ronnie: 1:06:15

that's fine.

Tomas: 1:06:17

Nutrition wise. You can look on my Facebook page for some nutrition stuff and websites that I feel are really good to read articles and also dealing with stress in our horses. I don't think it's strange at all that we're dealing with more and more stress induced syndrome types of things in our horses, we call it Cushing's syndrome in people, dogs, horses. It's a excess stress hormone in your life has predictable, negative, measurable consequences. And we're seeing it more and more and stress can come because of all of those things. Don't have enough friends. Don't have enough space. The diet is not right. My feet hurt. My teeth hurt. These are all sources of stress. And so you've got to take a look at. Reducing the stress coming in from all of these different angles in your environment and the human environment to who I'd like this part, what is the human environment like, I mean, how you show up around your horses, you know, with more calm confidence, or are you just a big worry about everything? Be honest about it. It's okay. I can tell when I meet you, I can tell when I meet your horses and I get to meet you, how, what the human environment is like. And we talk about that and it's really cool and it's really important. And it can be fun. To begin with, it can be like, Oh, you've got a spotlight on me. And it's like, yeah, but it's okay and we're going to have coffee later, or we're going to have a beer, or we're going to just hang out, or we're going to see you again next time, or we're going to follow the progress here. I tell people, you know, I wish you'd send me some pictures once in a while, and I wish you'd send me a message about how it's going and however many times I can say that and just portray that I really mean it. For a long time with some people, it's just like tumbleweeds or just like, you know, no word there's no word. And I finally break down and get on messenger or send a text, like, how's it going? I can't stand it anymore and sometimes you're like, Oh, it's fine. I'm like, Oh, good, thanks for telling me other times. It's like, Oh, it's, you know, this, it's like, yeah, we need to, we need to get back on that. Right. Yeah. You need some support for that because let's face it, not every veterinarian talks like this. Right. And a lot of veterinarians talk about stall rest. Ah, no, no, no. That's not a thing. Okay you're not going to hear me talk about stall rest in horses. No and we can go into that sometime if you want. We should probably get together, Ronnie and talk about some more of these sorts of things because we're just kind of brushing some tips of the icebergs here and, and yes, but you know, dig down a little bit more. Why, why would I say that? How could I say that? It's like, well, let me tell you how I could say that right back to the nature of the horse again. You think you're going to force healing on that boat tendon in that horse. And why do they re injure themselves when you go to do your controlled exercise six weeks from now? Even months and now you have ulcers and now you have a metabolic problem because you can find the horse and now their feet are falling apart because of lack of stimulation and movement and their minds are blown and their condition off their body is gone because of Lack of fitness and lack of movement. So back to trusting your horses more. Absolutely. I, I trust horses to be out in big spaces and they don't self destruct. They don't, they actually calm down. I've watched horses that been put in stalls and they're starting to spin and cause more injury. Develop ulcers, develop colic, develop more hoof problems, more musculoskeletal problems. Oh, I'm getting off on that tangency.

Ronnie: 1:10:42

No, no, it's fine. You just reminded me, I'll say a quick story so I had a client who who was a friend and she had a horse training facility. And one of her own horses had a bad injury and he was told to stay in the box, which he was okay, but he was also getting sedated and she messaged me to say that he's really struggling and he's been sedative, but there's something not right with him. And the vet says, you've got to sedate him because if he moves, he's going to do more injury. And basically. And when I tuned into his energy, he was fighting the sedation, he didn't want to feel out of control. And it was sedation he was fighting, not being in the box at that moment so I said obviously I can't tell you to do something. If your vets recommended sedation, it wasn't like a heavy sedation. It was just like a sedative anyway, the next day she messaged me to say I'd forgotten to put the sedative out with the feed for my groom to feed breakfast in the morning. She's like, I totally forgot all about it and he's so much calmer today. He stood in the box and he's actually calmer. So he gave her the proof of what he was saying to me to pass on to her and that was I don't want to be sedated, I'm fighting this and because I'm is looking worse than what's actually going on. But she knew me and she trusted me, but I said at the end of the day, you've got to go with what you feel because I can't tell you what to do, but this is what your horse is saying. Whether she meant to forget it, or it was meant to be that way, but she forgot to leave the meds, so it worked out fine in the end.

Tomas: 1:12:27

Coincidence? I think not.

Ronnie: 1:12:29

No. There's no such thing. So this podcast is just to give people a little insight on to where you are with your mind and your work and how you'd like to progress and to Help people if that's what they want to do. If they want to look a bit deeper into the animal care, the horse care. I will put link ups to your book and your website as I normally do anyway, and they can contact you directly with any questions, we could go into each subject deeper, but what happens is we lose. where we are. So like you said, I think that'll be for another conversation or perhaps we should do a webinar where people would like to know more can join us and maybe do something like

Tomas: 1:13:12

that. Yeah. I think there'll be some comments or questions or inquiries that can come in. So if you have a subject or a certain tangent that you think would be really helpful. Because I I do ask people a lot of times What do you need the most help with what's the most confusing or what's the biggest stumbling block people are usually pleasantly surprised and probably along with you, Ronnie, I think we could tag team it probably pretty effectively and, and work through it. Find some, find some better ways to to move through it. And, you know,

Ronnie: 1:13:54

I have to say that just because I do this does not mean that I get it right, or it's perfect with my own animals. I am continually learning and it changes depends on what's going on with the horses and what's going on with me when I get clarity one moment, it can change. What could be right one moment can be not quite right the next moment. So it's forever evolving, it's never, you've got it. There's always a new understanding and, and sometimes the more you learn, the less, you know sometimes ignorant is bliss, but it isn't really, but sometimes it's that feeling.

Tomas: 1:14:36

That's an okay space to be around and move through as well and actually helps you absorb even more at that point so. Absolutely.

Ronnie: 1:14:46

Well, thank you so much, Thomas, for coming back and visiting us. And it was lovely that we could actually talk and listen to you because that's what people come on for to listen to my guests. Would you like to say anything before you go?

Tomas: 1:14:58

Well, just ripple on. You know I'm not gonna pretend to know how big or how small any sort of ripple might travel or where it touches you or who you might talk to next. But I trust that it's going to go and we're going to just ring that bell when we can and think about that, how, what we do really matters. And that you matter. Absolutely. Guaranteed. I will reflect that right to you in this moment that you matter if you're listening to this and you feel that there's something that you can move forward from here with please do and know that if you were to send me a message or send me a picture about something you're very likely to hear back from me. Whether you do or not, okay, just, just to let you know that I'm real and hope to see you again Ronnie's special platform here.

Ronnie: 1:16:00

Thank you, Thomas. What a lovely guy. Lovely guy. There was lots of subject there and it was just flowing But it was scratching the surface. So as Thomas said, if anybody's interested I would like to ask him some more questions or myself Please feel free to contact either of us and I think it would be really good to do a webinar so people can actually physically join in and speak to him face to face. Thank you for joining, take care and I shall see you soon. Bye for now.