Steve Halfpenny - Light Hands Equitation

Interview with Steve Halfpenny.
I'm very pleased to announce an interview with Steve Halfpenny.
I came across Steve many years ago on YouTube while doing a little research on gentle horsemanship. I bought a few of his light hands video tutorials (tapes, not cd's so that shows how long ago it was) I loved his approach and manner with the horses he worked with.

I hope you enjoy  listening to this interesting and exciting view into the world of Steve Halfpenny at Light Hands Equitation.
I loved our conversation and the surprise was I wasn't expecting it to go the way it did, which was a real treat.

So sit back, relax and I hope you enjoy this episode, as much as I did recording it.

Steve's Halfpenny.
Steve Halfpenny is the founder of Light Hands Equitation and Light Hands Horsemanship Program.

He travels extensively delivering clinics in Australia, NZ and UK and His specialist style of training is not discipline specific and can easily be applied to any form of riding.  Steve has proven that with the right training, any horse can be a relaxed and willing riding partner.

Steve's  key focus has been to find an easier way for the horse and rider to communicate, creating simpler ways of explaining horsemanship to people, so that they can better understand the horse’s intrinsic nature rather than simply delivering a rote training program.

This technique is not only effective for dressage and  competition, but is also highly beneficial for anyone looking to build their horse’s gymnastic ability, create softness in their horse and improve communication between themselves and their equine partners.
https://www.stevehalfpenny.com
https://www.facebook.com/light.hands....

Video version (alongside applicable podcasts) can be viewed on facebook and YouTube.
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https://www.youtube.com/@equinevoicesuk
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Contact Ronnie.
mailto:equinevoicesronnie@gmail.com

Transcript

Welcome to Equine Voices my name is Ronnie and I'm so excited to have Steve Halfpenny. Now I came across Steve quite a few years ago. I think it was probably crikey. Let me think. Now a good 10, maybe 15 years ago.

I'd got some videos and they were tape videos. I came across him on YouTube and I thought, I like the look of this. It feels very gentle and it's something that I'm interested in. So I watched them and I loved them. I can't remember a huge amount about them, this was a while ago but I really enjoyed them and it was just the softness in his voice and how he was with the horses yeah, so that was my first introduction.

I'm going to bring Stephen and he's going to do a little introduction about himself and then we'll have little chat . He's an award-winning filmmaker, bestselling author and founder of Light Hands Equitation Light Hands Horsemanship and the name just jumped out at me.

So without further ado, I shall bring Stephen and bear in mind it's six 30 in the morning where he is so, you know, good on him for coming out.
Hi Steve.

Steve:
Hi Ronnie. How are you today?

Ronnie:
I'm fine, so good morning to you sir.

Steve:
Good morning.

Ronnie:
For people that may not know who you are in your own words a brief description of you and what it is that you do with horses?

Steve:
Yeah, I suppose I should start off with my history I suppose. I grew up in the uk, migrated to Australia as a 19 year old. I won't tell you what year and I was in a, like a hostel, you know, we arrived in Australia and they put you in this hostel while you're looking for somewhere to stay and somebody introduced to this family and it was my to be wife, you know, so I got to know her within a year I was married and one of the things she said when we got married was you do understand I'm gonna have animals. I'm gonna have dogs and cats and I need to have a horse. Okay? So, She gets a horse. And I was like, I'll never see her. Like I come home, she's gone like she's off with a horse somewhere and now I look back, it's sort of almost silly. I think I was almost jealous of the horse.

You know, it's like where's she gone? She's got, the horse has got all this time and I, I've got no time with her so I'm gonna have to get myself a horse.

Had nothing to do with horses in England. So that was the beginning of me even touching horses, you know, I was already 20, 21 and I remember saying, well if I get a horse, would you look after it? I don't wanna look after it and do all that stuff. I'll get a horse and then at least when you out, I can come out.

I have to laugh now cuz when I'm helping people, I think back to her teaching me to ride in those days and all the silly things that I did in that process.

So it might help some of you. She had an Arabian was one of the first horses she got. I'll teach you to ride. So we go around to the local oval and she takes the horse out and gets me on it. You know, we walk past this hose all coiled up, her end the sprinkler, cuz the horse shy at the hose and splat down goes Steve. So she says, she just said, oh, you can't, you can't give up. You gotta do it again.

She said, get on again. Walk past the hose, splat down and go again. So three times in a row splat, I going home. I don't like these horses very much. walked up and left.

So that was basically one of my very first experiences. I dunno why people would want to ride these things. Like they're just dangerous.

And then we got into some local shows and I saw the Western world and I'd liked the Western ridings. I got involved with that. And I suppose at the time, all the people there were, they went to competition and they had horses really as a vehicle to win something. You know, you're there to get a ribbon or win something and the relationship wasn't in there, it was just about gotta train the horse, get the horse trained so I can win something.

And I got fairly successful at that. You know, we, we'd win a fair few things and my wife would say I don't like what you're doing, you know, I don't like the way you handle the horses. I don't like how you treat the horse. I said, well, well, how can I do differently? You know, I'm paying these trainers to tell me what to do and help me learn how to ride horses in the competition way.

And she's very, very intuitive lady, you know, so she could see that there's something really wrong with the way I would ride them cuz I was just trying to make them obedience. I didn't really think of anything else except just be obedience. And then I dunno what year it was exactly, but she Elli was coming to Australia and it was way before there was a probably natural horsemanship system or anything.

It was just the man coming over and had his son with him and there was just his little bagg of tools and he did a clinic at a rodeo people's place and my wife just booked us in. She didn't ask, she just said, well, this weekend we're going to this clinic. So I went to watch that and it was pretty clear then that I had a big problem with my horses.

The way I was treating my horse, just listening to him and watching what he was doing with horses. I went, I haven't got a relationship at all with my horse, you know, I'm just getting him to do things because he has not a lot of choice. You know, he does what he's told or he'll run into my Spurs or my hands or something and he'll have to listen.

So that was the beginning of a, a massive change, I suppose in what I thought about horses. But it was only the beginning, you know, as you, you evolve, you, you changed more and more. And back then I got into that system and went through the Levels program. And one of the clinics, one of the instructors said, I should be an instructor.

You know, you should apply. So I did that for, I don't know, nearly 10. and then I was having trouble with visas getting to America. So it get, it was hard for me to continue going to the clinics I needed to go to. And I ended up parting ways basically. Cause it was getting too hard for me to, to do the right thing, to keep qualified.

Then I started on my own, met a few other horsemen and started to develop more of a feel for it, cuz even with Pat it was good, it changed me completely, but it was still trying to follow a system where you do things sort of a, B, C. Then I met, during that time I met a guy called Philip i, and this, this guy's from Tasmania and I watch him and he seemed to get on the horse and melt.

You know you were one. When you're on the horse, there's just this human and horse and it looks like one thing working together all the time. Yeah so I'd go, I was still an instructor for Pat back then, and I'd be watching Philip all the time instead of, probalby a bit rude.

Instead of watching what Pat was doing, I'd be watching this guy riding around in the background and thinking, man, what's he doing? How could he get that horse so connected? You know, where he would be writing bareback and bridles and jumping everything on the place and doing lead changes and he's not just doing it. He's going exactly where he wants.

He's not just riding a horse that's doing its own thing. The two of them were, were so connected and that become my quest, you know, whatever Phillip's doing I want to be able to do.

So I started that journey and kept going along, after I'd left the system, I thought, oh, well I probably won't teach anymore because that's what I was doing and it'll be finished. But people still wanted me come back. And you probably know I used to go to the UK and do clinics there every season. That's been a few months in the UK and Europe.

And it wasn't really until a horse came into my life that I had to be different with, that it changed me completely. So I'd been teaching and I went to my own thing after I left the pareli system and started to evolve. What was to start with, we called it Silver the Sand Horsemanship.

I remember doing those and thinking DVDs are coming out. Should we do VHS. You know you got the VHS in a big massive manual with all the pages and you know, the, so we did that and then of course within a couple of years that had finished so we put the whole program onto DVDs.

But I was still trying to come up with a system where people could just do the a, b, abc, you know, if you do A and then B and then C, everything would work out. Now I'm almost no system it's more like, well what's the horse doing? How's he behaving? How can I read the horse and work out what the horse needs from me?

That's a whole story, you know my life a fairly long one, but probably the biggest change was I started to go to Equitana in Australia and you've got one in Europe and we've got ours over here. And a lot of my friends would say, you should do this young horse starting thing, they'd start a horse in two hours and I think no, I don't wanna do that but one of my friends kept going and he said, oh, it's awful these people that started the horses, you know, you should give it a go, so he just put my name in, I didn't know I got a phone call. We like to come over and watch you start a horse. Why? Well, we wanna see if you're gonna let you in the competition. No, I'm not applying. Lady came over and I started a horse in the roundy yard at home, they put me in for it.

So that sort of moved me from people will find me if they want me that was my attitude you know, people want me they'll come over here.

And when I did the equitana thing. And then suddenly everybody wants me to go do something all over Australia and cuz I had that audience and I've still I've got the horse now, you know so that horse, I started there in two hours he's here.

He did the rounds of Australia before he came back, but now he's back. So because of the connection with equitana they call me so we got this whaler challenge.

They went out in, caught six wild horses out in the Australian bush that were basically whalers and whaler a type of horse they used for the war you know, sent over to fight. And then when they finish with them, they turn them loose in the bush so they turned into this wild horse. And the Whaler was basically a horse that was bred in New South Wales so they short name them whalers.

So they captured the six of them everybody that was in the competition had a horse. So six people, six different backgrounds, like one dressage, ones western, one jumping, you know, once the trick horse. And they had a year to get these horses ready and then go to equitana. So halfway through the year I got a call, one of these horses is not going so well, you know, it's it's buck the lady off kicked her in the stomach and she doesn't want anything more to do with it, which you take it on.

So as you do yeah bit arrogance, you know I couldn't do it. So he turns up with this lady and she tells me the story, you know, he was tied up and had him settled. Just walked up to him to check the saddle up and he just let her have it and just flattened her. Well that sounds interesting that he wants to just kick somebody.

I remember the first day I took him for a walk and I'm going out through the bush I'll just take him for a walk. No pressure. We'll be fine and he just started to suck back a little. Like instead of being at my shoulder, he started to go a little further behind me, a little further, a little further. He's gonna do something like he's getting ready to do something. Then he launches forwards, like he is far enough back that he is, got some slack, and then launched forwards and went to kick me and luckily I was sort of expecting something, so I had the rope short enough to pull him around and not let him kick me. But then I realized that this guy really wants to hurt me. Like he doesn't like people one little bit, like he's not, not wanting to be here and if he could leave he'd leave.

So I try everything I know how to do, you know all the physical skills I've learned in my life and how to teach and train and he made me feel like I knew nothing, you know, whatever I was doing, wasn't gonna work with him.

And then I've got a friend and she's a bit of an animal communicator. She said, send me a photograph. Send her a photograph, and she says, Hmm I think you need some serious help, you need to call Vita LaBelle. I dunno whether you've, you've heard of Vita, Vita's, a Charman from, from America.

I think she's in the Tao of equs the book. She's fairly well known. So yeah I'll give her a call. So I contacted her, she said, yeah I'll help you but she'd give me all these conditions, you know, send me some pictures and just by looking at the pictures, I'll tell you if I'm gonna do it or when I'm gonna do it.

So I sent her some pictures she said, yes you need help and I need to help you. And I'll tell you when he is ready, you know, she does this thing called soul retrieval where she goes through past lives and sees what caused him to be the way he was. So, okay and seems, sounds like a little voodoo to me, but you know whatever, I'm doing's not working right now, so if you think you can help, then we'll give it a go. And I was giving crystals in his water and, and all sorts of herbs for him and everything that I could think of. I think that Steve, you are changing, this is not the stuff you normally do.

I wouldn't even tell my friends what I was doing, putting oil still his spine and doing all these things that I was supposed to do. And I'm laying in the bath with hay all over me. You know, like a feed bath. So if he wants to eat he's gonna have to. around me. So that took your ages and then it's really interesting the changes that he made.

The first one, which was really made my hair stand up on the back of my neck, it was, I'm thinking he's gonna kill somebody, you know and he still belongs to equitana.

So I rang them up, I said, if I'm going to help him and do this thing, he's gotta be my horse. they said, what do you mean? I said, no, it's gotta be mine. If he goes somewhere, I decide where he goes. Normally sell them off, you know, and somebody get the horse.

I'm like, no I'm not going through all this and you know, if somebody gets killed at the end of it cuz he's dangerous and they say, okay, we'll sign over the papers he's yours. And I'm on my mobile phone about 50 meters away from his yard. And he'd never laid down once since he'd been there, I'd never seen him once lie down and they said, yes, it's yours and he just has this big snort and he lay down.

That is weird stuff, you know that now he's mine and he is staying that he's okay. And worst, scariest thing that happened to me with him, I was riding my good horse and I'd had him on a lead rope and he just took off, like he nearly pulled my horse over and just took off. And we lost him for a whole night, like he was gone, went through the fences, disappeared in the national park next to us, so he spent the night out there . And eventually I come to this, can't saddle you without you trying to run around in circles, you buck me off, I can't ride you. You know, I'm supposed to go to equitana and show everybody how I've got you ready.

This is gonna be a really good example. I can't ride you, I can't do anything with you. So we came up to Vita finally was looking at these pictures. She said, he's ready now, we'll do this sole retrieval. I said, okay, what do we need to do?

Well I need to set him up in a yard with audio so he can hear me and I can hear him. So, so she wants this phone link going, so put him near the house, made a little yard up, set up a Skype connection and had all this stuff so she could see him, she could hear him.

And she starts doing what she does, you know, telling me what she sees about his past and the things that had happened to him and how he died in her previous life. And, and she's sobbing nearly cuz whatever she's seeing, she's living and so she's, she's really upset and I'd go, why am I crying? You know, I don't know whether this is even true but I'm feeling really emotional and crying about it all.

And she was about two hours on the phone with him, you know, talking. And at the end of it, she said he'll be right now, what's he afraid of us? Well, you can't put a rug on it.

He really doesn't like to be saddled if I go near him with my cowboy hat? He, he doesn't like that. So she said, you've got your hat, you, I've got my hat put, put your hat on him. What? So just stick it on his head. So you know, he stood there, let me put the hat on his head never moved and put his ears into it and I'm thinking, can't believe you let me do that like he doesn't let me do things like that.

Then she got a rug there yeah, I got a rug. Just pick it up and throw it at him. I throw it at him. He's gonna be over the fence, he's not gonna let me do that . I'd be folding it up to put it on, you know, cause he was so reactionary.

So yeah, throw the rug at him, he just looks over his shoulder. Hell yeah. No problem. Then she says he got your saddle there. I went saddle. Yeah. Get your saddle on it. I don't like, I don't like where this is going you know puts the saddle on. girthed him up. Didn't move. She said that's good get on. Got on, give him a scratch he just didn't move.

And now you know, I'm thinking all my life I've been doing this and working since I was 20 towards who I am and everything that I've done so far, you've just turned upside down, you know, cuz whatever you just did, I have no idea how you did it.

I dunno why he's okay right now and you know, I've still got him, he's still out there in the paddock and I decided that probably he doesn't need to be ridden, you know I've been on him and I've, I've done it and I ended up taking him to equitana and just doing groundwork and he was brilliant. He did all the ground work. He's doing shoulder in and his shoulder out and headquarters in and all this groundwork stuff, and was brilliant. And I can't believe we're near thousands of people and you haven't left. You know we're together and we've done this whole show.

But it it bothered me so much, you I was talking to Vita and she said, what's wrong? I said, I feel like I, I shouldn't have a horse, what you've just done, I think I don't feel like I've got the right to even own one. So she did the salary retrieval thing with me in the middle of the week and same thing, stories about what happened in previous lives and why I ended up with horses. She said one thing that blew me away, which was when I was born I was gonna die, mom was way, way over due.

From around those old days and you're not you're not ready, you're not ready and I should have been born weeks before I was and mom nearly died and I nearly died. She said, how does this lady know that we don't talk about stuff like this? So she already knew all this stuff that had happened to me.

So it's that decision thing, you know, do I just take it on face value that it's true? And if it's true, a lot of the things I believe about my life and why I am like I am, are wrong.

I think I'm like, I am cuz the way I'm brought up and the way my parents treated me and you know we always have these reasons why we are doing what we're doing. She talked about that as though those things happened before I was even born.

That caused me to be who I am and it changed my relationship with my mother and totally changed my relationship with horses. So the next day I go out to work with horses and, and they're all different. Just all different thought this is strange.

So that's the hair on the back of your neck stuff, you know, when you go, why are they all different? And I remember talking with Arana, my wife.

And I said, am I any different? You know, am I any different? She says, no exactly the same. Right, no problem. And then about three weeks later she says, you are totally different. I said how'd you know I'm different? Why am I different? She said, well, you know, all the things that I say that annoy you. I said, yeah. She said, you haven't reacted at all to anything I've said in the last three weeks. I said, no. And all the things that you do that annoy me, I snap at you for it and you don't react to that either. I said, no. She said, why not? I said, I don't need to.
Because I dunno what relationship you are in. You know

Ronnie:
I'm not

Steve:
There might be a reason for that.

Ronnie:
Oh, thank you

Steve:
Well, what my wife would say was nearly always to help me but she would take it the wrong way and then there's a reaction to it. You know, that's, and I say that now with horses all the time. We can't even communicate with the opposite sex very well, how on earth are we ever gonna be any good with horses?

Like this alien creature compared to a human. It's perceived whatever you perceive you react to. So what I, what I think now with horses really is if I could set things up correctly and they knew what I wanted, surely they would do it.

You know, because it's way easier to not have any conflict and do what you need to do to feel comfortable. And horses love to feel comfortable and safe, so why wouldn't they do that? You know, there is no reason for you to feel that there's a contest going on.

And I still see that whatever habits we've learnt in our life, whether it's the way you think you were brought up and the way your parents treated you, that gets handed on to your relationships with other people and your relationships with animals and my biggest issue, I think is the same as I had, is how do I change human habits?

So that they can communicate better with, with a horse or even with another human. Cause I think it's totally connected. Anybody that's really good with horses should be okay with people too.

Don't now if you agree but sometimes you see somebody's supposed to be this wonderful horse person, then they're horrible with people.

So it's like that's sort of an incongruency with me. It's like if you are really there to help the horse, then somehow you've gotta help the person to find a better way to communicate with them. And it could be intense feel, but what you think of the horse is powerful I think to me, they know pretty well as soon as you near them, whether you like them or you don't like them, or you blame them for things. Or even if you're angry with yourself, they know. So I used to tell everybody to be emotionally neutral and they think like it's a negative thing somehow, like you devoid of any sort of emotion. Mm-hmm. . And that's not what I mean.

I can feel really happy and really joyful around horses, but I try not to let them make me feel any negative emotion, you know, he's doing this to me because of, you know, he doesn't like me or he's awkward or he is being a, being a bit of a pain.

No, he's just trying to get through life the best way he can and if you can't communicate better, then you're not gonna get a very good result.

Ronnie:
Absolutely I'm must say Steve, I'm a little bit gobsmacked actually, cuz I'm sat here thinking, oh my God, now I know why I ask you to come on my podcast , because I wasn't expecting a lot of that, in fact most of that and that's just blowing me away. So what's the name of the horse that you was talking about? The one that did the retrieval.

Steve:
We call him Radar. He was named Coronation after one of the whalers.

Ronnie:
As you were talking about him and before you sort of came to the main bit, I was getting goosebumps. Yeah and so that's my confirmation. So when somebody's talking, it's, it's confirmation. Yeah. And i, I just found that fascinating. So I just wanna go back you said he was in a water trough surrounded by hay. Is that correct?

Steve:
Yeah so just to get him to touch me or want to be near. So you wanna eat anything mate? I'm gonna stay here all day. Like you're gonna have to, you're gonna have to come and eventually come and grab hay between my legs or under my arm or something and start eating.

Yeah but he, now I go out there and he still has that sort of moment.

Ronnie:
My sense of him at this moment, so it is just a sense that I'm picking as you were talking Yeah. Is very much his own energies own being, and yeah. It's a case of, it's a mutual understanding. Yeah. And respect for each other and as I'm saying that the word respect is maybe not the right word, but there's a big powerhouse in that connection between you and, and your horse and also appreciation cause what I wanna say is there is a gratitude for your own development in your own self and moving through your own energy. This is what I'm getting now. Mm-hmm. , there's a mutual understanding because of what happened with him. The respect is the same for you, does that make sense?

Steve:
Yeah.

Ronnie:
So as you see in him the beauty and, and, but you also talked about I don't feel I should have a horse. You know, because we have this guilt when we are looking after a horse and we want the best from them, if we feel we've made mistakes or we've not seen something, we get this big guilt trip and I'm talking from myself as well but what He's, okay, he's cuz what he says, I, okay, sorry, he's talking to me Now. What he says is, I stand in my truth and you standing your truth and it's as simple as that and this is, this is very much his, you know, it's that or it's that. It's not this, it's that or that.

Very, very proud. Yeah but what I'm saying is if he was a man, he wouldn't, come on pat, you on the back say they're there you're okay. He'd stand tall with his chest out and he would watch you struggle but then make it and that would be his proud moment because you've made it on your own and that's very much his energy, which is yeah a powerhouse.

Steve:
yeah. Yeah. He is great. And he's here for the rest of his life, you know, he is going nowhere. So.

Ronnie:
And from my understanding, from my work, soon as you did that, that thought was already in his energy and that's why he knew that was happening. So when you said you saw him lie down or you saw him sleep, mm-hmm it's because he knew he, he felt the change. He knew that instantly, which is amazing. Yeah.

Steve:
He is, he's an amazing horse.

Ronnie:
Oh my goodness. I dunno what I expect Steve but it wasn't that and it's lovely.

Steve:
We've all got physical skills and the hardest part, you know, I've got some instructors around the world, but the hardest part is it's really getting people to understand what you're really doing because they can see the physical, they can't see the rest of it.

Yeah. You know, yesterday we were in the round yard and helping somebody and working the horse and it's sort of going around me and it's spent the right way and it's going the right speed and everything's fine. And we swap and, and the horse is, Sort of running away a little bit. And how do you teach somebody that, it's not about chasing them at all. It's about getting them connected somehow and being with you. We are human, so we want to know what did you physically do to get that horse to go? And I said, well, I just thought about going the same as I would if I didn't have a horse. You know, humans go from standing still to moving and there's a transition in energy and, and everything as you prepare to do something and horses feel that.

So it feels totally mechanical to just move them with a tool, the transition starts inside of you, doesn't it? You start to change the way you are, the way your energy is, the way your life is, and then the horse goes with it. And the same thing in the saddle.

If I have to use my legs all the time it's like, I would say agricultural, you know like you don't understand anything. You're making me bump you with my legs and pull you around, I don't wanna do that. You know, I need you to feel that we are one, we're together. But it starts as soon as you're with them.

Ronnie:
So did you help the person? Did it work?

Steve:
Yeah, yeah. She's, she's a great friend. She's one of our instructors so yeah it always gets better. But, but your decisions, my decisions anyway, are not really based on the physical. The based on what do I feel the horse is thinking of doing next and can I help them, let's say I was trailer loading.

It's amazing now when I think, Please don't pull, don't go around the trailer, don't go to the left, don't go to the right and then the horse goes, I'll go in the damn trailer, that sounds like a good idea. I used to be really, how do I get you in the trailer? You know? Now it's like, how do I get you to decide that going in there would be amazing, you know, rather than how do I somehow get 600 kilos to get into a trailer? It's like, you're never gonna get 600 kilos physically, it's the trailer by pulling and pushing on it. But if you can get them to make that decision, it was nothing.

And I suppose even though it's obvious now, it took me a long time to realize everything has to be a decision. If it's not a decision, then you are using some sort of coercive force to get it to happen. And it's really nice when you have a horse that's trying to read your mind and moving in the direction you want it to move it, it feels good.

So that's my, how do I get everybody to get to that place, which is maybe an impossible dream, but it's, it's it's nice to try and work towards that with everybody and if they feel it for a moment, you just see their faces change. You know, when they have that feeling of being one with a horse, it's like, yeah, that's a drug. You, you want more of that?

Ronnie:
Absolutely yeah once you touch on that, that little moment, I mean those moments for me are not ridden because I, I barely ride my horse. But I love spending time with them, I love spending time.

I've got two horses and she came this summer. For company, for my other horse she's 20 and she's western. But I fell in love with the western riding and that stemmed from watching cowboy movies when I was younger with my dad and I used to sit on the back of the sofa pretending it was horse, and I was galloping across the planes on the back of the sofa and I usually fell off the sofa and my parents couldn't afford horses, so I was a late starter so I was an adult when I had horses. So I got into horses late and doing the communication came through my own horse Toots because there was something, something not right with her and it was very, very subtle. So at the time it was so subtle, but there was a sense of something, and it was only later as it got more relevant that I got an explanation, but actually I've gone past that now you know, there's other things, but at the time I thought, I wish you could just tell me, I wish you could just tell me. And I was already a member of a small group. We used to meet for meditations. It was just a fun thing.

So my intuition was already there and I decided this is what I need to do. I need to understand. And at that point, I was thinking if she could tell me what it is, I could fix it. And it was all about fixing it. Making it right, making it okay. Which I'm now discovered that actually that's not always the case, that's not always our right. You know, they've got their journey. And would I be doing this if it wasn't for that? Now, that's a double edged sword when you're talking that way because you think, well, , there would've been another opportunity maybe, but I don't know. So she got me into the communication, mm-hmm and the communication is when I hit that moment as you were talking about you know, that connection and because I've been doing it for a while now, I go quite quickly into it and it's a lovely feeling.

But I say to my clients and to people the sweetest part of the communication is no words, no doing, it's just been in that energy. It's almost like the calm before a storm. There's that peace. The wind stops blowing, the air stops moving around. It's just very, very calm. It's absolutely beautiful. And that's it and I can get my clients to feel that sometimes, I just get them to be there.

Mm-hmm. And I see myself as a facilitator. Plug it into the universal energy, which I'm always plugged into, so they can feel that, so they can do that themselves. So I'm not doing anything. I'm just being there and the animals choose what they want to do and as they open up and as they connect, the humans connect through that too.

It's lovely to see. And they're often tears, by the way. Often tears . Yeah. In fact, when I get a cry, I'll go, yay it's okay. We're on the right track.

Steve:
we're getting somewhere good.

Ronnie:
So, okay your wife sounds fascinating. Mm-hmm. . Yeah, she sounds a fascinating lady. Maybe we should have done an interview with her too.

Steve:
maybe, maybe we could get in front of the camera.

Ronnie:
So you have online courses, so how does it work for people that think, well, I need to be there?

You and I know that you don't need to be with somebody because it's the person you connect with it, but obviously to a certain degree, how does your online courses work?

Steve:
Yeah, it's just a portal basically and people can log in and then I've got a membership, you know, where you pay monthly membership by this monthly videos going out about what I'm thinking about at the time.

And then there's some specific courses, and I suppose one that surprised me at, at the time it was just walking with your horse, you know, going out and we call it a hundred miles. We used to call it, now, I'll call it trail brave. Years ago when I'd go out riding in the bush, starting horses, we'd have this instructor team together.

They'd be walking and I'm riding. And I remember back then going, why are you riding? Like why on the ground And they weren't ready to ride, you know? So they would get the horse out and everywhere they were gonna ride it, they'd lead it. And I was, you know, that brave that I was stupid back then, so I'd just get on a ride and go, I dunno why the hell you're on the ground? Like, why would you walk when you could be riding? And now I'm, you know, 65 yesterday, on the day before. So I'm going, I think I'll just walk first and I'll lead them out and I'll go around all the places I'm gonna ride them. That came from just practicality, that's what they do with the horse to get it brave. And people weren't thinking about that. They would just go, well, I'll ride it in the arena now, I'll ride it in the round yard and then when it's time to go somewhere, you actually ride it into a place that's never been before.

Well, the chances of something going wrong are way bigger if you just ride into the, the unknown and a horse has never been there. So I just started to talk about that and people have had amazing changes by just walk out with it, get it to be alongside you try not to be ahead of it. Try not to let it get ahead of you. You know, can you be together and some techniques on how to do that with troubled horses and horses that wanna go faster than you.

And I was just shocked at how popular that was. I don't, you know, Elaine from Ireland, but Elaine helped me film that when I was over at her place in Ireland and suddenly everybody wanted this course and I've just done a survey. It's amazing, you know, call it, would you like to do liberty? Would you like to do riding with some contact and finesse? Would you like to ride bare back? Would you, you know, all these list of things. And nearly everybody, the biggest percentage that I'd like a more confident horse.

So that's my latest quest now is like, okay, what do you put in a, a confident horse course? Because it's not just about waving flags around and trying to get them not to react to things. And when I really think about what I do with my my own horse, everything I do is trying to get him more confident.

You know the leadership that I'm offering you? Are you confident about the environment it's, it's not just one thing, it's everything. So a convident and horse of course can't be just getting used to tarps and leading them over things that are scary and, and taking them through trees. It's like, no, that's just getting used to specific things.

I think my horse's confidence comes from knowing that if he listens and he goes with me, then he'll be safe. No matter what he sees, he can rely on me to not get him in trouble. I guess my next quest is to come up with a plan and a course to have people create a really confident horse.

But it takes time, it's not gonna be a six day course or a seven day course. You've got a plan, but this is gonna take you long time. Cuz if you've got a worried horse right now, it's not gonna suddenly be brave just because she bought the course.

If only yeah, you'd be a millionaire.

And you know a lot of that, people want to be confident human because that's what I see, humans that I'm not confident. Yeah I suppose if your horse was confident, then you'd automatically feel that you were confident but sometimes it feels like it's the other way around you've gotta be confident so that the horse is . You're nervous and worried, then horses tend to follow that and they end up nervous and worried too. So you've gotta somehow get humans to be confident first, and then the horse will follow.

Ronnie:
Yeah. It's the old thing, isn't it but I want my horse to trust me. Why doesn't he trust me? It's like no, you need to trust yourself first and that's what they say, you know, well why should I trust you? And you don't trust yourself or have confidence in yourself, basically.

Steve:
Yeah horses behave, and humans behave in a way that follows a pattern, doesn't it? The way you've learned to behave until today is developed in neural pathway. So something happens, you trigger that, and that's the story with my wife. You know, she'd say something and it'll trigger a neuro pathway where my brain would go, that's disrespectful. So you get a different answer.

Now it's more like, I'm fascinated by what that means, instead of react to it. I'm fascinated. Is that. is that supposed to mean that you like me or you don't like me or whatever. Rather than give yourself a moment to think before you react, cuz it might not be what you think it is. That's what I see with horses. Everybody's got pre-conditioned beliefs about what's going on. And horses too, they react in a certain way.

The clinic I did last weekend you know, everybody comes in and they've got the horses and this lady, oh, this horse is off the planet, you know, it's gonna run around, it's gonna be crazy.

So I start with yours then, you know, I got my flag and the horse, you can see it's gonna jump right or it's gonna jump left and do things. So I, it's about to jump to the left. I went, no, no, that, you know, putting the flag back don't go over there. And then it's quietly standing, looking at me.

She goes, how'd you do that? I said, I just got ready to not let it do what it was gonna do. . Well, how do you know what it's gonna do? You see its body's changing, its balance is changing. It's obviously gonna do that, isn't it? And they're like, no, I don't see that. It's obvious. Well then you're gonna be late.

You know horse is gonna do something before you've actually been there to support it and help it not do it. Even going all the way back to those four early days, pat used to say, you time to their actions and then one day you'll learn to time to their thoughts. And I remember back there thinking, how on earth would anybody know what the boss is thinking? You know, how would you ever know that?

I still don't reasonably know what they're thinking, but I see how their balance is changing. And if the balance is changing one way, he's gonna go that way. That's what he's thinking of doing. If his ear is appointing somewhere, then that's where his attention is.

and I'm sitting on Gandolf my horse in the clinic and I got my arms folded and his ears are sort of back on me and we're all talking about attention. I said, okay you know, there's 8 of us is here, whose horse is watching them right now?

Oh, mine's not he's looking at that horse or he is looking at this.

What's my horse looking at? He's looking at you. Yeah. How long's he been looking at me? He's always looking at you. I said, yeah, what am I doing to do that? And I said, well, nothing. I went, you sure? He said, no, you're doing nothing. So I went okay, now I will do nothing and see how long he stays with me.

So five seconds. he's like, who's that over there? You know, he looks, oh, why is he looking at people now? I said, because I'm doing nothing. But you were doing nothing all along. I said, no I was doing something. And are you always doing something? I'm like, yeah I'm always doing something . Don't you ever just switch off? It's not, if I want the horse to be with me, why is he gonna stay connected to me if I'm not trying to be connected to him the whole time?

Now it's just subtle things, like if he looks to the right, just touch him a little bit with your left leg. If he looks to the left, touch him a little bit with your right leg just to bring his mind back. But you're not really touching him. I said, no, I'm just changing my balance. But he knows as soon as I've disconnected from him, he'll do his own thing and that's fine, the way I think. Well, that's fine. I'm not paying any attention. If I don't pay any attention, then why should you?

But I think riders expect so much from the horse and they give so little. you know, you want 99% outta him and you wanna put in 1%. That's, that's pretty hard.

Ronnie:
Yeah. I think a lot of that is, that's how they think it's done, like you said, you know, your parents imprinting on you and everybody else, what you see, your peers, your friends. Myself included, my learning has come from obviously watching people like yourself, listening and wanting to understand more, wanting to look at more, and then through my own horse, the feeling of things, but actually working with other people and their horses.

Quite often a lot of communication isn't actually doing anything, it's just being in their presence and just observing, actually observing the horse. Mm-hmm and we can be talking, I can be stroking the horse and I'm talking to a client and it's all like, my hand has a mind of its own and it will stop somewhere and I'll go I just need to stop talking now because actually the horse wants me to do something And mm-hmm it's not like it said all Ronnie, can you just put your hands on there for five minutes? It's just an understanding and a knowing because my hand is literally stopped like a magnet.

And I'll say, I'm really sorry, this bit's a bit boring, but this is what I'm doing. And they'll say, no, no, I can, I can see.

But often they can actually feel before they see, but they don't realize because nothing's changed visually but I can tell the energy's dropped and changed. Mm-hmm and then they see, so they actually feel it, but sometimes they're thinking I can see it but they're feeling it. Yeah. Which is lovely.

Be And then afterwards I'll say you actually felt that before you saw that, did you realize? And they won't always be aware. It's interesting because when the horse change and shifts and relaxes, the human element does the same, the person, the client will slow the breathing down and you know they'll do similar things.

So I'm observing the horse and I'm observing the person. But I'm not doing anything I'm just. Being there, allowing them to see and feel that for themselves because that is the greatest understanding and learning, but the greatest gift because that's what, that's what you want as you teach, you want your students to feel what you feel to get into that space mm-hmm it's that understanding about their own awareness is the key to then what they see in the horse.

And it's so funny cuz you can change your mindset, with your own horse, it's different cause you get into the day-to-day stuff and sometimes you go there and you've got busy head. And my horse is very good at telling me you know, don't come near me with that going on in your mind or if there's emotion coming up and I'm not quite aware of it, I can be feeling fine, but underneath there's something coming up and I think, what is the matter with her and she triggers something. Whereas before I would take it personally thinking, what am I doing? You know I feel like a servant here. I feed you, I poop, you , you know, I go up to work to do the same thing tomorrow and then I realize, okay, I don't know what it is, but there's a trigger and I can feel it coming up and then sometimes I'll go tears and then she'll come over. I got. Right. Okay. I understood. You could see that ball coming up before I did.

But it's incredible, isn't it? It's it's fascinating.

Steve:
I had a customer years ago. She had an appaloosa she would say, oh he's just a hard horse he's always arguing. He won't do what I want you know, her whole life was terrible. And then she'd lost her business. Like she had a bus business doing the school run for kids here and something went wrong, lost a contract you know, life's terrible and might lose the house. Everything's gonna be awful.

And she's sitting in the paddock crying in this horse that she can't catch, comes over and puts his head over her shoulder and just really nestles into her. She rings me up, you wouldn't believe what's happened, I'm crying my eyes out and now I'm crying even more cuz he comes and puts his head on her shoulder.

That's amazing because of all your sadness, you've become who this horse wants to be around instead of you spending all your energy trying to change him, you were just sitting there with no expectations at all. Mm-hmm. , feeling sorry for yourself, and now he wants to be with you.

That was one of those, wow. Aunt Horse is amazing. You know, you've been working at this for years and now because of one change in you he's right there. Just another one of those examples of, I need to be different if I want my horse to be different.

Ronnie:
They see the authentic I'm not sure if that's the right way to phrase it cuz they don't speak in our language, but they see that vulnerability, an authentic and raw person.

Yeah, I had an experience like that, it was early on when I was trying to fix her and I used to get frustrated because the reason I set off on this work was to help her. Which, you know, if I hadn't done it, I've no idea where she would be so who's to say that I hadn't helped in certain ways, but there's more work to do, understand that.

And I felt guilty because I sent her off somewhere for some training. And although where she went was renowned, but it wasn't for her. Cause it was old school as you were talking about, you know. So it wasn't that they were bad people or anything, it was just all school and it had the opposite effect.

So I felt guilty for that and guilty for this, that and the other, which obviously attaches to your own guilt from wherever and I was sat in the field similar to your friend. And I just felt really low and I felt this breath on my ear and I just burst into tears.

But the words that came through, I had to go home and write them because when they communicate, it's very much like, A feel, and you have to translate it. And I went home and wrote a poem, and it was basically, she was saying at that moment in time, she was saying, I'm fine with who I am, don't pitty me. I'm fine. I'm where I am. And it was about not looking at all those things, which I understand now that you can hone in on something and you can look at it and you can focus on it. And it's hard to explain, but the very thing you don't want stays there. And that's similar to, I suppose, your teaching.

That if you focus on what you can't do and you're trying to make something happen and you're pushing against it, it's not going to work. You've just gotta allow it, flow in the right direction and let it unfold sometimes.

Steve:
Yeah, absolutely. It's finding what's available right now and then building on it, you know? Instead of going for what's not available. Like the big thing. Yeah. It's like the big thing's made up of little micro things, and if you can just keep on putting all those together, you end up with that big thing pretty quickly. But sometimes the big thing's just too much, it's more than they can do at that time, and then you're never gonna get it unless you start breaking it all down into smaller pieces.

Ronnie:
And there's no time frame. Humans like to have a bit of a timeframe, especially if they've got something they're aim for and that's the biggest thing sometimes, isn't it? Because you're already putting up a condition there for yourself as well as for your horse. Mm-hmm. . So that can be a block in itself. Yeah the more you understand the harder it is sometimes or the more complicated we make it.

I'm laughing because that's still me in a lot of areas. So with my clients, my work, I can say it, whatever comes through. And the more you do, the more you gain knowledge and you're like a sponge. You absorb knowledge from other people, you know like the good stuff you take off the cream and disregard the rest. But when it comes to yourself, I still laugh it myself because I have those triggers and my body still has its parasympathetic, sympathetic system, wherever. Yeah so I have to work through those areas and it's ongoing, it's ongoing. We've got a lady brenda, do you know this lady?

Steve:
Yes, I do.

Ronnie:
Oh, bless her, she says, you are awesome, I'm gonna read this out for the benefit of the audio that I'm gonna make this into afterwards. So Brenda DP says this is an awesome session. Steve's approach and wisdom is incredibly effective and valuable. I'm very thankful to both of you forgiven your time in sharing your experiences. You are very welcome and that is so nice.

So Steve I'm beaming. Do you know what? I'm really enjoying this conversation.

I enjoy all my conversations but this is so my wavelength and I, I wasn't expecting it so. Do you still do equitana are you still part of that?

Steve:
This last one. I haven't, I have been until now. Usually do demonstrations and things but it's, it's a big commitment, you know getting over there with your horses and melbourne's nine hour drive for me. Oh, crikey. Yeah.

Things are a little different UK and Australia. It's like, oh yeah. Three and a half thousand kilometers across, it's a big space.

Ronnie:
So when are you coming back to the uk. If you do, I'd definitely like to catch it with you.

Steve:
Yeah I'm coming over to do a, just a short visit this next year, so I'll be over july, August. Yeah. Just for three or four weeks just to help some friends out cuz I haven't been over since Covid.

Yeah. But I'm probably not gonna do the, the three months anymore. I just miss my horses and everything. Too much to spend so much time away from home.

So what area are, where will that be?

Around Kent, further down towards dover yeah. It's probably gonna be just one clinic.

Ronnie:
Do you still have family in the uk?

Steve:
Yes. My wife's got a brother up in Scotland and I've got some family left, you know, auntie they're getting older and of course, and falling off the wagon as you do, as you get older.

Ronnie:
that's one thing that's inevitable that in taxes.

Steve:
Yeah it's really weird. When I left it was 77, I'll give you my age. I was 77 when I left it. It was weird I never thought I'd ever go back and then you end up going back because of horses and doing horsemanship clinics. I was very mechanical in England riding motorbikes and fixing engines and cars and things.

Ronnie:
Thanks to your lovely wife I mean, she's the one that got you into horses, so, you know that was a meeting made in heaven.

Steve:
It was and like I said, the intuitiveness of it, nearly always, she's been right. You know, whenever she said, and it can be really frustrating. You know I said to all the guys, when you get married, remember this? Yes dear and I'm sorry.

Ronnie:
That's good training, that's good background.

Steve:
I think my wife, she reminds me of a sensitive Arabian, if you treat them okay everything will be fine. If not, you're gonna upset her. So, so don't do that.

Ronnie:
If we do this again, which I would absolutely love to have you on again Steve, it would really be nice to meet her and say hello in person if she's up for that.

Yeah,

Steve:
I dunno whether she will, I get the camera out. She's usually runs away.

Ronnie:
Does she? It's so funny, I've got thousands of pictures of horses on my phone and there'd be none of me. But through something else. This got me into doing this, so I don't mind seeing me here cuz it feels quite natural.

It's really bizarre because it feels, it feels natural. But mm-hmm. . Yeah the worst bit is pressing the button to go live.

Steve:
When I do this, it's all recorded.

Ronnie:
Yeah, I did try to do a recorded but because you can stop it and start again, I just like the natural flow of it and it doesn't always work. Sometimes it's glitches but that's part of being live, so to me you know that's part of it.

So we've got a question from Gail, Gail Simmons and again, for the benefit of the people that are just gonna listen to this Gail Simmons says, could you describe your biggest ooh, ah, moment when you knew that old school needed to be left behind?

Steve:
I think the decision stuff, you know, realizing that I wasn't good, I wasn't working with a horse's choice and that was one of those things. I can't think there's any one thing, Gail, that really stands out. You know people that have helped me in the past, this was maybe why I've had so many difficult horses in my life.

I'm thinking I'm a horseman. I probably would now say that the people that said I was a healer, so Vita said I was a healer, my friend says, you think you're a horseman, you're a healer, you're not a horseman. And I'm thinking, I am not. I'm a horseman, , you know, I work with horses.

Now the more I go, why do you end up with so many difficult horses in your life? Why do they keep coming? And I think yeah with Vito, it was really interesting cuz radar was probably the most difficult horse I've ever met, in a way that if you get this wrong, if you do something that he doesn't like and you are not ready, you are gonna get hurt. And then after that, I had the next year, six or seven horses come along for work cuz I was taking horses into be started and training and they were bad or worse, these are just people's horses.

These are not wild things that have been captured and brought in. So you know, every now and then I do chat back to Veta and I said, Veta like, what, what, what's going on? How can I spend my whole life and get one difficult horse, really, really difficult horse and then in the next year have six or seven, like, how's that happen?

And she said, what do you open the door Steve? And now they're coming. I'm like, can I shut it again please? And she's right, it's almost like the universe sends them to you but what really scared me was like, man, these are people's pets that they're coming along, they're so off the planet and I'm supposed to help them get to the point where they don't kill the owner.

That was the hard thing because basically the realization, I suppose, going back to Gails question was how it wasn't so much that I need to change is that how do I change everyone else?

Because that opinion of the way things should be is so old school and still around, it's everywhere and we think there's a mainstream change to what you might call natural horsemanship, which I would probably call enlightened horsemanship cuz I don't think there's anything natural about riding a horse.

They're just amazing animals and they allow us to do it anyway. But how do you get people to think differently all the time? It was easier when I didn't know, cuz now I do know, now it's a massive challenge to challenge everybody's beliefs and even nice people.

You just hear oh, this one's he's a dirty thing, you know, he's got dirt in him and he's, he's just a horse. Like where does this language come from? You know, you're a nice person how have you got language like that? Yeah. Where you blaming the horse and saying all sorts of words about him that I don't like, you know, hurts my ears ,when I hear people talk really badly about a horse. Even if I get hurt you know, I've been hurt several times, but I usually go, well, I messed that up, why would the horse need to defend itself? I obviously did enough to scare it to the point that it needed to kick me or do something like that. That's the hardest thing now is how on earth do you get anybody else to understand when it's taking you so long to understand.

Ronnie:
Yes but you are doing, and you will do, otherwise you wouldn't be doing this and you won't be attracting more of it.

Steve:
No and there's a percentage, isn't it? The clinic, I did the weekend, what was great for me, they're friends that organized the clinic. So three day clinic and then two days it was supposed to be private lessons, but nobody booked in. So I just ended up spending two days with my friends and they did amazing stuff you know, I went home smiling cuz I'm like, they did amazing with those horses that last two days, one was green broke. So he had that many rides on him. He looked like he'd been ridden hundreds of times and they are, you know, riding in, in the middle of nowhere where they wanted to leave, they could leave and the Wife source was, you know, the clinic was started off really bracy and by the end, when we left, it was just melting.

So those things you guys made my day. You know, it's, if 1% actually take it on board and really follow it, then, then it's working. Mm-hmm because it's not gonna be a hundred percent. It's never gonna be a hundred percent is it. No.

When we go to a clinic, everybody's not there for the same reason. You might be there, go, oh, it'll be nice to go to a clinic. You're not really there always to be a better person.

Ronnie:
I think Gail replied to actually oh, she's asking another question. Was there a particular horse who showed you most clearly?

Steve:
Yeah. Well the one talked about was Foxy, I suppose, which was my appaloosa. And he's a whole nother story we spent another hour talking about him, but we were going to these western shows, you know, and they have a little lottery going and you buy a lottery ticket and it was a service to this really great appaloosa stalion that was national champion working cow horse and I was really into the reigning and the working cow horse stuff.

Oh yeah, we'll buy a ticket so we won the thing, we won the service. Great we don't have a mare why did we buy a ticket we don't even have a mare. So one of my friends said this Arabian mare and she'd thrown people off and broken somebody's arm. She's free she's either going dog me at cuz she's dangerous or you can have her That'll do we'll take her.

So we bred this appaloosa from this marere that nobody wanted to ride and most people wanted to shoot, and he turned out to be the horse that I did all the natural horsemanship with and he was amazing, you know every day of his life, he used to make me smile because he had that attitude, are you still the leader? I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm still the leader. He goes, how about now? I went, yes, yes. I'm still a leader, like every day. And I remember my wife working with him and he'd come up behind and goes a go to nip her or something and give a little bite on the shoulder.

Why does he never bite you and he always tries it on with me. And we were both parellie instructors at the time, I just said, well, what do you think? You know, why'd you think he would do that to you? And he wouldn't do it to me. She goes, yes, no respect for you at all, does he? And so off she goes and grabs some tools to teach him to be respectful and for about four or five weeks, he's pretty respectful and then he's back to doing the same thing again. I said, what happened? She said, oh, it's just too hard, it's so intense with him, like, He's always challenging you. I said, yeah and I love him for it, you know, but he used to make me smile cuz he was so cheeky.

If we were doing an interview like this now and he's there and I had got my mic and my wires, he'd have them like, if, if I looked at you for a moment, he's like, you got it. You little rat bag. Like he's got my headset or he is got my wires or he is got something, he was just one of the life's characters.

We went to this camp once and I'm thinking Philip, I rides anything bareback and bridless you know, I want to do that one day.

So Philip borows a horse cuz he live in Tasmania, so it's an overnight ferry trip from Tasmania to Melbourne. So when he brought a horse over, he'd have this overnight trip with the horse and then he'd have to drive 1500 kilometers to where we did the Pelli camps and this year he said, that's too far, I don't wanna do that it's too hard. And he borrowed somebody's horse.

So he turns up and this horse really is not listening, you know, it's bit pushy. He doesn't really listen. And I thought, well he won't ride this one. Bare Beck and bridles, this one's pushy, you know. So two days later I look up and he's riding bare back and bridles countering down the fence line doing lead changes in and outta these trees next to this barbed wire fence.

You know, got off Foxy threw his bridle on the ground, threw his saddle on the ground. I've had it. I jumped on Foxy bolts off with me and went, oh hell look, disappears up the hill. But he only did about 50 meters and then calmed down and relaxed and came back to me. And that was another one of those life-changing moments where you were like, I never trusted you enough, eh, to give you all the choices because I get on bare back and briss nothing around his neck, no string and he took off. I went, I got nothing now, like really? If he doesn't come back, he, he doesn't come back and he only really did that 50 meters and then calms and then he was amazing like the rest of his life, I could ride him bare back and brisen anyway anywhere, you know, take him down to the city.

But what he taught me as well is if I let somebody else work with him, he wasn't the same horse. You know he'd always read everybody. He might decide like if you came over, cuz I had people come over from Europe and lots got to ride him, he had a different lesson for everyone that rode him. I remember one girl came over and she said, you talked about this thinking about going and the horse goes with you. I'd never felt it. I get on your horse and he does it. Why does he do it? Cuz the last person he wouldn't move for them well obviously that was your lesson, you need to learn how it feels. Other people need to learn how to be effective, and he was amazing.

I always thought I wanted a school horse. They would show everybody how it feels. And even the one I've got now, he's almost the same because he was such a worried horse. Nobody else got to touch him really for years and years and years. And as soon as he was brave enough to let other people ride him, I did. And then he changed the same. Yeah they're not Steve, they're not riding the same way. They're not doing things the same way. I don't need to listen. I'll go and do my own thing. Really, how does training work? You know for 16 years, you always do it Exactly right. How did you suddenly do it wrong anyway? Because I don't have to do it. Right. That's just amazing.

So that's still amazes me, cuz you go to a writing school and they're almost robots. Why didn't my horse turn into a robot? Because it's not really practicing patterns, it's more practicing being connected. So the horse isn't just learning how trot to run their boundary and, and or just try how to counter circles he's actually learning how to be with you, and that's the hard part to get.

He won't fill in for you, if you're not actually with him and riding him, he's not gonna suddenly go just do 20 meter circles perfectly for you. Because your body's not doing the right thing for me to do a 20 meter circle so I don't do them. Yeah. And yeah, that still fascinates me because you've probably studied the equine science, haven't you, but repetitions and reward and habituate the horse into a certain way of training that is obviously not what I'm doing. He's not learning patterns like that where he just does the pattern.

That's another fascinating thing cuz when I was talking to Johnson Ryan, I don't know John, but he's a great horseman and great into the science and I was doing the, you know, well how come my horse is different with different people then.

He said, you gotta realize that the horse, the way you use your hands, the way you use everything and you and your energy is part of the science. If you change you, you get a different result. I'm just thinking if you've changed the human, you've changed the human. You said, no, no you've changed the whole experiment. You are a big part of the setup. So if it's not you doing it and it's somebody else doing it, it's not gonna be the same results. They've gotta learn exactly what you were thinking, how you were behaving, how much energy you were using. Did you even have a clear plan in your head before you started to do it?

Because I see that a lot people do things, they go, you know what did you want to happen? They go, oh, I'm not sure. I thought I'd just do something and then try and do what you asked. If you're not sure, before you even start, how's he gonna be? Sure. How your horse gonna work it out if you keep changing every time you do something, but you expect to get the same results, how's he gonna work that out?

Ronnie:
Absolutely.

Steve:
Yeah.

Ronnie:
Have you heard of a lady called Dr. Susan Faye?

Steve:
I think I have yeah.

Ronnie:
She lives in Colorado, she's a very unassuming lady, she comes from a scientific background.

Steve:
Sacred Spaces, she wrote Sacred Spaces? I read the book.

Ronnie:
She explains to people about your thoughts and how what you are thinking. She describes it as pictures are sent and the horses pick up all the pictures. She tries to make it as easy as possible for anybody reading and listening to her that they can experience that for themselves. And it's lovely I'm actually in that group as well it's lovely to see people's experiences of just the feel and seeing the change by doing nothing, just being and watching and observing.

Yeah, yeah you two should get together and chat. Cuz that would be interesting actually. In fact I might mention it to her, would you like.

I'm a bit slack an organizing my podcast I need to do a few.

Yeah, you should ask her because she's a fascinating lady. She's a lovely lady. She's just come back from Texas at a summit. There was a big summit there with Warwick Schiller had organized and it was a lot of people on his podcast.

Yeah. But yeah she's a lovely, lovely lady. I'm just gonna put a few more comments up so Daniel Sharps Danny. Steve, you are full of horse wisdom and I love being one of your students. I'm always trying to change myself to change the horse thank you.

You've got some admirers.

Steve:
Yeah these are local girls, they must be up.

Ronnie:
Have you paid them to come on and say something?

No, I just put a post up last night to say that we were doing this.

Oh it's so nice. Yeah. And then we've got Gail again, she does animal communication and the same sort of thing happens to her too. Oh, thanks gail.

When I go out to see people, I don't always know what their expectations are and you know, it's how big is a piece string? So if somebody says an animal communicator I give 'em a brief introduction, say how I work, cuz everybody will work differently, as trainers do.

And my work's very much about the here and now horses don't wanna particularly talk about the past they want to know here and now and moving forward. And most of it's do with the humans. They want me to help the humans see something that's, that's going on and maybe with themselves if they're bringing too much emotional baggage to the relationship.

And sometimes they just wanna know that they're okay and they're contented, which is lovely. And I never know what I'm gonna get until I get there and it's so funny. They can tell you funny stories sometimes, and then sometimes it's, it's not the talking, it's actually just being there and

when the person witnesses the horses are changing and afterwards say, something's changed, I don't know what, but something's changed.

So it's not about going, oh my God, you came along and talked to my horse and everything's hunky dory, but somethings change and it's just opening a doorway so that they can start to do what they need to do, the horse and the client. But yeah I love it. I love what the horses give you.

They teach me so much about myself. It's not just about a nine to five, you do your job and then you do your normal home life. Mm-hmm. ,you incorporate that into your world because it's all integrated and it makes you a person.

Steve:
It's a way of life, isn't it? You are this person and you behave in a certain way. It's like people go to different clinicians and different clinics, but really we need to find somebody or some group of people that have the same way of doing things.

I just feel sorry for horses when we keep on changing what we're trying to teach them over and over. instead of sticking with something or one system and it doesn't have to be what I do, but horses need consistency and when you're in that place where you're not quite sure, you're searching, so you're searching, maybe this'll work, maybe that'll work, maybe I'll try that. But there's so many completing ways of doing things out there that the, that horses haven't gotta hope if you keep on changing.

Ronnie:
Yeah and we expect result even if we think I've been doing this two years, it doesn't matter if it's not right, it's not right. So you might have been doing things wrong for two years then they go somewhere else and when I say they, I'm the same. You want to change something or you want to better something. But sometimes you don't allow it or compromises, the word compromise doesn't always come into it. You do a lot and your expectations, but there should be compromise all the way along or there should be.

Steve:
One of my friends it's a psychologist, he had an injury, so he is retired over. When we were talking about change he had a really good, and I guess it's a scientific fact, but he was saying, changing yourself like 10%, maybe even every day is doable. You can do that over and over and over but when you see something that's 15%, 20%, 30% different than who you are, your brain actually goes into almost like the grieving, I can't lose my identity, I have to hang on to who I am. And that sort of gets in the way of change anyway, because in the background, you're not even working on it, but your brain is, it's like no, no I can't change like that. Otherwise everything I know and trust about myself is different.

I was a western rider so going from western writing to writing with no contact was easy. Going from being an English rider that rides with a contact all the time, it's like, well, that's more than 15%. That's gonna be scary to go from, I've gotta trust this animal that it's not gonna do something dumb. When everything I've been taught was about all that contact is needed for safety and control. That's probably the hard parts, I know with myself, you know, recently met some, well recently 78 years ago, person that taught me to ride totally differently and consciously, I'm trying to be different and put my balance in a different place and work and I can feel my body trying to do the old way. Even though I'm telling myself, sit on the inside of the band, get the horse in the right shape. Use your inside rain. I go, why is my body starting to lean the wrong way? Because I was taught always to lean on the outside and push the horse. You feel like putting your hand on your head, stop leaning. But it's that muscle memory stuff.

I didn't really believe in muscle memory was a real deal, you know? I thought, oh, it's just a habit but it's more than just a habit, your whole body's got a memory of how to do everything. It's like walking. You don't think of walking, you're just walk.

Ronnie:
You just do it. Yeah.

Steve:
You just do it and riding the same. If you've learn to ride in a certain way and behave in a certain way, even though your brain goes, I like this. This is a good idea. I'm gonna do this. Your body goes, no, no we don't do it like that. We do it. Read it the way we always did it. Another one that's fascinating things.

Ronnie:
As you were talking, so if this doesn't make any sense, then please say but as you were talking, what I was being guided to say to you is cuz you was talking about how you sit on a horse. I'm just double checking what I'm getting the right side.

So if I'm, you my left hip almost wants to sort of go like that slightly. Okay. And what I've been told to say to you is you might have to feel the extreme of the opposite for that to actually be straight. Does that make sense?

Steve:
Yeah, it does.

Ronnie:
Okay cause your horse just said, can you tell him please, so I'm glad that makes sense.

Steve:
What you just did with your hip is exactly what I do with my hips.

Ronnie:
Okay.

Steve:
That's why almost smiles. I went, who told you that?

Ronnie:
One of your horses did? Yeah and also because when you do teaching, cuz they show me you're sat on the horse. Sometimes when you are relaxed and you are talking, your body ultimately goes into that position. Mm. So you're not quite aware of it. So that's what's happening. They're saying to get some help, actually there's a few of them talking because it might feel strange that you are leaning too far.

You know if somebody says you stand up straight and you go, oh, I am a straight, and they'll say no, you like the leaning Tower of piza and then if you look, think, oh crikey. But if you do that, it feels like you are tipping. So until your muscle memory gets that new position. You have to let me know how you're going with that.

Steve:
Well some of the biggest changes in my life have been posture. We have a friend in England that came out and I was trying to get a horse to learn how to stop off my seat you know, just changing my seat and I guess being Western Rider, I was very relaxed and I'd sit on my pockets too much anyway instead of sitting up properly when I rode and she went well, you're six foot six. You know, you probably used to. trying to make yourself a little shorter when you're around people so that they don't feel good looking up all the time. I said, yeah, I've usually got a knee bent and I, you know, get a little bit bent over when I talk to people.

She said, be as tall as you can be. So she had me, how tall can I make myself when I'm up, actually I'm really tall now and then go and get your horse. Like, okay. So I had to laugh cuz I'm going to get my horse and okay, gotta be tall, don't bend over, just pick your saddle up and you just walk around as tall as you can saddle the horse up. Walked him around and I went from that position to whoa. And he almost did a slide stop from a walk. Oh right so when I'm riding forwards I'm in the stop position, so when I ask him to stop there's no real change. So it wasn't obvious to him that there's two different things.

But we all need that, don't we? We even need to video yourself so you can always look at the video and see for yourself, that you're not doing what you thought you were doing. I was on the ground to, to tell you that no that's not what's happening because I've got nobody telling me what I'm doing. I'm trying to tell everybody else what they're doing, but then there's no camera filming me all the whole time.

Even here, just looking at my own picture, you know? Do you always have your head a little bit to the side when you're talking to people? like, oh, straighten it up, and then I find myself, I'm back there again.

Ronnie:
Yeah so well your horses do. They've just said it.

Steve:
Thank you for that, Ronnie I really appreciate it. I'm fascinated

Ronnie:
 You're very welcome. Sometimes they find the things that you do amusing. But from well I wouldn't do that point of view, but I'm curious, it's like watching a different species, which obviously you are to them.

Yes and sometimes I get the character in people form so I can relate easier. Mm-hmm and it's almost like there's a group of them just watching, not speaking, watching. Yeah. You know, and then just looking at each other and they're like mm.

Steve:
I just realized behind me, you see the pictures on the wall?

Ronnie:
Oh, yes. Yeah.

Steve:
That was the Appaloosa. He's gone now, but yeah.

Ronnie:
When you mean gone you mean his energy.

Steve:
He's passed away. He's passed away. He's still around.

Ronnie:
Yeah, they're very much so, very much so. Their energy doesn't go.

When he died, you know, I'm thinking I might not ride anymore cuz he was my soul mate. And then I start another horse and he'd start to feel exactly the same in what he was doing and I like all this goosebump stuff that now cause I realize my habits created him and his habits created me. So everything I ride's gonna stop feeling like him after a while because yeah, all my rules came from him.

You know, the way I expect a horse to behave the way it feels, how soft horses feel. It's almost like he's on my shoulder going, you wouldn't let me away with that. Don't let him do that. Don't let him push you around and shov on you.

That's funny. Yeah. That happens quite often, you know, like if a person gets a horse and they've had it while. Their horse can't do what they're expected or something happens with a horse and they get another horse and then mm-hmm. , quite often that'll do the same thing, and then they'll get another horse and they'll say the same things happening again. Because it's stemming from the person and getting them to realize that yeah is a big game changer.

Steve:
It is, yeah. I'm so unlucky about three horses and they're all reared. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Ronnie:
I'm laughing because my New Pony, the companion she has some similar traits and my friend says, why are you gonna get another horse? Cuz you know, if you haven't resolved your own issues that the same thing's gonna come up. I went, yeah, yeah but I've learned some things you know, I've learned a few things and then she's presenting, I'm like, okay, I obviously need to start working on that now, on me.

Steve:
Yeah. I look at my old photographs and I'm going through all the old pictures and there's some moves that I do, and I guess with the western stuff, I'd love spins and rollbacks and those sort of maneuvers. And I'm looking at my stallion, my appaloosa, my gelding, you know, 16 one quarter horse short appaloosa, all different shapes and sizes, and the way they were moving, they're all identical.

The way their head's facing, the way their body is, the way the balance is and the way their legs are reaching. I went, that's amazing. Like if you put a different color on them, you'd say it's the same horse but that's your pattern isn't it? I create that. I'd like to bend this way. I'd like to change your balance this way, move your feet in a certain way, but it's really good to look in whatever habits to your horses got is, is a result of yours.

Ronnie:
Yeah, that's a good way of putting it definitely.

Right steve we've been on an hour and a half, do you know what it's so funny, it's just like we are just chatting. I mean I know there's people watching but you've made this, such a lovely comfortable get together.

Oh hang on you can read this one cause this is a long one and I'm getting a bit of a dry mouth now. So I'll let you read that one.

Steve:
Okay. This is from Danny. She's a longtime student. Yes steve has seen me change over the years. It's true danny, you were certainly high energy and she has, you know but Danny she's become what the horse needed her to become, which is great. We can say like I'm a very high energy person the horses have to get used to us, but Danny's actually changed completely the way she's around horses so that they're more comfortable around her. So you're welcome. Danny, it's been a pleasure to help you.

Ronnie:
It's great to have an interaction from the people that are watching as well, it's nice. And people will listen to this in the podcast version, so they can listen at any time. So before you go, is there any parting words that you'd like to say to the listeners?

Steve:
I think it's to basically to believe that your horse is always trying its best to do the right thing and if we can present things in a better way, then they'll do exactly what we want. You know I'd like to feel that we didn't blame horses for things, if you could just take away that they're trying their best to get by with the information that's presented to them and they interpret their worlds the way they do.

So if they're doing something negative in your view, they obviously feel at the time that they need to be doing that. And that's what helps me to not get angry if a horse does something that maybe might threaten your safety, you know, it's like, oh, well that's a trigger.

If you don't work on their confidence and help them be a braver animal, they're always gonna be doing things that are not nice to put up with. Like they're shy at things, they'll do things that get humans in trouble. You know, they're still scary, the more people die of horses than any other animal on the planet and I think that's probably because more people don't prepare.

We don't get them ready, we don't help them to be mentally and emotionally, physically ready. And my personal journey right now with my own horses is really focusing on the mental part. If he does not understand what I'm trying to get him to do, then mentally he's gonna get out of balance, and that will turn to an emotion and usually the emotion turns to something physical.

They'll try and leave. They'll try and run away. They'll pull, they'll do something. So every time my horse does something negative or perceived negative. It's not really negative, really, something mentally happened. His perception of the world was different than what I thought I was trying to present to him.

And I've had a horse now he's 10, and I've been working on him for a long time, and most people would say he's just shouldn't bother with him. Like he's just too crazy about life. But when he is with me he's amazing. I'm trying right now to go, okay, every time he has to leave, I must have done something to mentally unbalance him, otherwise he'd stay with me.

And there might be habits that I've done over 40 years that never bothered other horses, but it bothers him. Mm-hmm and until I can find a way so I don't bother him to the point where he feels the need to leave, then I'm not gonna fix it. It's getting better, but it's almost, you know the difference between flooding and progressive desensitization.

I think with him, if you flood him, there's no change in him he's gonna be just as bad the next day. Flooding is like me locking you in a lift cuz you're afraid of lifts. And I'll lock you in the lift every day until you get over it. You know, you open the door and you're sitting in the corner crying. I'll do that again tomorrow. I'll get you over it and we'll do it again. We'll do it again with the end of the week. I'm not gonna get you near the lifts. Some people do that all the time with horses and it's not that you intend to.

Where is that level, the level that sends him to that flooding place is way, way lower. You know, I might think I'm working on desensitizing him, but he gone flooded, left. Over the years I've had some horses where, I remember one, I put the rope over his neck and next day he'd react and I put the rope over his neck and react and it wasn't until I just picked the leather popper and just started to take it over his neck. Like, just, you see it, take it away and then he was fine.

I'm not doing much. I'm not doing much, but I was doing too much. My brain's going, I'm not doing much, but his brain went, that's more than I can deal with. The behavioral scientist I was with years ago, she said it's like a graph. 50% of horses you can flood them and they'll get better. The others it's like you get this response comes back to zero, the next day you do it, you get the same response back to zero because we're human, we keep doing the same damn thing and expecting them to get over it. Instead of well, that's really not working. And if I can say, not make the mistake I made, that was the biggest mistake I made. Kept doing things that worked with 90% of the horses and expected the other 10% to, to deal with it. Instead of going, no, these are not the same horses. These guys need me to start way below what I think my zero is. We all have this zero that we think is zero, and it's not. It's your perceived zero. It's not the horse is zero, it's yours.

The last things you learn in life for me, it seems to be last thing I learned is the first thing I'm trying to teach people because it seems like it's the most important thing in my life at the time. That's a long-winded answer to your question.

Ronnie:
No, no that was beautiful steve, thank you so much. I have thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed our chat. I enjoy all my chats, I love all my guests, but I've really enjoyed this one. It was not what I was expecting, which is often the best thing. And if you'd like to come on again, I would definitely like to have you next year when it's convenient to you to have another chat. And yeah, I think you should get into touch with susans Faye, because I think that'll be, be a good word for me.

I will do yeah she's a lovely lady and there's a lot of similarities but she's different too, which is good.

So if you just like to say bye to everybody.

Steve:
Bye for everybody thank you for your time. Thanks for listening to us.

Ronnie:
Oh my goodness, my cheeks are hurting, what an amazing guy. It was like I was in the room and just listened to him and I could listen for hours because I totally resonated with what he said. You know, when I contact people they don't know me and I am so, so grateful when they say yes.

And when you have a bit of rapport, you know especially when we've just met literally, it's so nice. It's been fascinating. Have a wonderful week, have some quality time with your horses wherever you are in the world and don't forget, just being with them. If you just have that nice moment, that's precious, whatever it is you're doing, whether you're poop picking or just sat watching them, eat hay, that's precious time with your horse and they know you are there for that reason.

They know the difference, being there for doing or just being there because you wanna just be in their energy. They truly know the difference. And that's a good place to start as far as I'm concerned. Okay.

So have a wonderful week. Thank you so much for taking part in this chat with us and for the comments and questions.

Take care and bye for now. Thank you.