Equine Voices Podcast
Equine Voices Podcast
Interview with Leslie Desmond - www.feelofahorse.com
Interview with Leslie Desmond.
I was so excited when Leslie agreed to join me on my podcast, especially as she is such a busy lady, who often travels around the globe for her work.
Unfortunately due to a few technical issues, the quality of the recording was not audible in a few places throughout the session, which made it a little difficult to edit.
However, I am pleased to say I have managed to edit most of those parts out and although the recording is a little shorter than I would have liked, you can still appreciate the essence and passion of Leslie's character and the amazing work she does, with horses and people all over the world.
So sit back, relax and I hope you enjoy this short episode with the very talented and knowledgeable, Leslie Desmond.
Note:
Please note, some of the upcoming events Leslie mentioned will have passed due to the timing of getting this podcast out.
It was recorded before the events took place.
For further information on Leslie and her work go to her website links below.
https://www.feelofahorse.com
https://lesliedesmond.horse
Video version (alongside applicable podcasts) can be viewed on facebook and YouTube.
https://www.facebook.com/equinevoices.co.uk
https://www.youtube.com/@equinevoicesuk
https://www.instagram.com/equinevoices.uk
Contact Ronnie.
mailto:equinevoicesronnie@gmail.com
Hello, and welcome to today's episode with the amazing, talented Leslie Desmond. Now this podcast is shorter than I would have hoped. and that's due to the editing because of a few technical issues on Leslie's end. The Sound quality was not that brilliant at times, towards the end, and there's parts of it that are good, but I was struggling to hear what, as he was saying, because it kept cutting out, which made it very difficult to do live interview, if you can appreciate that. I felt a bit disjointed at the beginning because I was already aware, it was either work or it wouldn't because of that technical stuff and once a guest has committed to coming on, I don't want to say, oh, we're not doing it now. I was hoping that it would work out. So what I've done is edited all the stuff that's non comprehendable. And hopefully you'll get a feel of Leslie's character. She's an amazing woman, she's in her seventies and she has done so much in her life. She's traveled so far literally and personally and what she doesn't know about horses isn't worth mentioning. So I hope you take this as you find it, take what you can from it, and just let you know that we will be doing another get together, live or we'll do a recording, but she's got a wealth of knowledge and it's a shame because as we got towards the end of the conversation, her passion was coming through and when she's talking her face lights up and there's this childlike spark in her, this enthusiasm, which is beautiful to see and beautiful to hear too So bear with me through this session, I hope you join us again because she's a fascinating woman. She speaks as she finds, She doesn't hold back. But it's her knowledge and her passion that gives her that that drive. yeah, so sit back, relax, and I hope you enjoy this taster episode. Good evening. I am so sorry for the delay. We had a few technical problems. Leslie's in an area where the signal is not that brilliant. So hopefully fingers crossed. We can have a conversation. So without further ado I will bring the very patient, very lovely Leslie Desmond in.
Leslie:Thank you. I'm Leslie Desmond, long time time horse lover and actively involved with horses since a young age and I've been at this a while and had many mentors that were meaningful to me and, taking the best that I could and left the rest. What didn't fit I leave behind what does work. I appreciate so greatly. And fortunately, great, great people have taught me some very useful things. If I can be of any help today, please. Ask away.
Ronnie:Thank you. So would you like to start by telling us how you got into horses? So, you started pretty young you was four? So was that while you were still in Germany?
Leslie:No, no, I came over earlier than that. No, I had my first ride. At four years old and I on horses, and just holding onto the hair.
Ronnie:Leslie, you was dropping in and out there so I could only hear little bits so I do apologize. We're both in an area that's quite remote. So the signals challenging to say the least.
Leslie:I'm ready now. I've got a pen you'll have to read the questions if any are asked because I couldn't find my glasses. I'm sorry.
Ronnie:I know you've got a busy schedule because we tried to get this before you went away, I know you said you was going away for quite a while. Did I get that right?
Leslie:Going away just means I'm traveling. all have phones, so I'm I'm not I'm not unreachable. I have a background in horse training and I have a background in jumping and I have a background in several riding styles. I've worked with all kinds of horses for years. Most of my life. So I started training since when I was 10 for my uncle. We would get horses at the auction for his summer camp and he would buy them based on color and just tell me to have them ready they couldn't buck anybody off. So that's how I got my start training horses. training horses for him that he bought at the auction. Some were trained, some were started, some were unstarted when I was about 5th grade.
Ronnie:The question that I did write down was when you talk about horses, what do they mean to you? What do they bring to your life? We can all say, Oh, I love horses. I like riding. I like doing this. But what does that bring in your life when you're around horses?
Leslie:Well, it gives me something to do that I'm good at, and that I enjoy, and helping them in any way is my purpose. I I work on their bodies, their feet, their teeth, I, I help the owners that are new to horses, been doing that all my life. I work with people that are at the top of their skills and stock, people who have reached a plateau. I work with people that are frustrated, people that are, you know, Hopeful people that are 1st time voice owners. I I understand them pretty well and I help people get to a point where they can leave their frustration and their concerns and a lot of money going out. That doesn't need to be going out unnecessarily. Nowadays, it seems like people just spend money on horses. They're not riding for all various types of stuff. On some, you know, weekly or biweekly stipend to fix up this or that. And so I tried to help people understand how to get away from the dependency on. Get get more hands on so that they can. Keep more money in their pocket, be a little more independent and look at their horses as healthy. Instead of ailing and in need of. You know, many kinds of services and there's lots of good service and good help out there, but I, I tend to end up with calls quite often from people that are just at the end of their idea about what to do, because I don't know why, but it's not working for them anyway. I, I tend to be. One of the, one of the last people called, I wish I were the first, but I'm not, I'm usually the last, but that's okay. I do, I do have a, I do have a pretty big circle that I go on a big, a big loop I do around the world and around the country periodically, quite often actually.
Ronnie:You did a trip to the UK recently, didn't you? You was in the UK.
Leslie:This year and last year, and often. Yes. I'm there often. I have a lot of nice people there. Yes. I was in Scotland and Ireland before that. And and then I just went abroad to you know, there, it just, it's a. 35 years.
Ronnie:That's a, that's a long time. That's a lot of work, Leslie.
Leslie:A lot. I enjoy it. Yes.
Ronnie:When you come to the UK, do you find, do you find that a lot different that you're presented with? So not the horses, obviously, but expectations or questions, do you find it different from the people that you may be visiting there in the States or is it generally the same?
Leslie:No, it isn't the same. Most people in the UK depending on their age came up through Pony Club and the British Horse Society or they were learning from Monty Roberts's system or you know, one of the more popular things that took the country by storm in the mid 90s You know, but that, that's, I mean, and that effect wasn't just limited to the UK, but there's more of a preponderance of people that were joining up and using that lingo. And then there were, that sort of was a laid over the British horse society background and so on. A lot more jumping and a lot more confidence in the riders in the UK because they get started younger than in the States. You know, and you have horses as a way of life a lot longer. I know that when you stopped fox hunting in Europe, when you stopped fox hunting, I think that was under Tony Blair, shut that down. Didn't he? You know, that's fine, whatever, but it sure changed things. And yeah I'd say that people in the UK and Ireland and Scotland are a lot more comfortable around animals. And about dogs, a lot more laid back about having pets and a lot more realistic than in other places per se. I'm not trying to compare things, but you asked me to compare them, so I did.
Ronnie:Jumping is something that is never really drawn me jumping. I think the size of the jumps that you get the horses to jump over is like, crikey, they're bigger than me. Which doesn't take a lot cause I'm only tiny. But hacking out or as you call trail riding. That's more my interest. So you also do dentistry, do you do feet as well?
Leslie:I started trimming when I was 14. I'm better now than I was then. Comfortable taking care of most when I've got a situation that I'm not comfortable with, I think the most important three words you can have in your vocabulary is I don't know. And when I don't know what to do a lot of good people to call. So, yes, I've been doing feet for 50 years more than. And six years, I would say I'm 70 going to be 71 next birthday. So yeah, I've been doing feet. I didn't work on feet the way I do now when I was a 14, but that's when I first picked up some tools and realized that I just was shown, you know, the basics in eighth grade and then I just started figuring it out after that, asking questions, reading books, getting DVDs. Facebook has a lot of good sources of information. I've been to some different classes. My students are pretty good. I've got one student in particular, Hannah McCarter, who's been very helpful in the understanding more than I would have found out on my own for sure. I'm not a dentist. I certainly do have the credential to go out and do horses, but I know that I don't know enough to make my services publicly available. I've been working at this for 3 years. I do not work on horses for the public, but I do teach all of my students how to put a speculum in a horse's mouth, get comfortable putting their hands in there. I teach people how to read a mouth. I'm pretty good at reading a mouth. I'm pretty good at charting a mouth. I've learned how to do those things. I'm quite confident on that basis and I'm very confident to teach it and show people what's going on in the mouth so that they can understand the difference between an unskilled untrained dental technician and one who actually is called and I know I can tell you the biggest difference. Your qualified, your certified dentists and vets do not do the front teeth. And that's a choice, but all you have to do is learn how to read the manure to understand how bad a decision that is. And I'll say it straight out all the teeth grow at the same rate. They're not growing like a rat or a rabbit, but they erupt at the same rate, which is a few millimeters a year. And if you've got the same people on your mouth and they're in there with hand tools or power tools once or twice a year and they're not doing the front teeth. It explains why you have the kind of manure you do that looks like damp chaff at the bottom of a hay bin because you know a tremendous amount of the food can't get properly chewed and properly digested. The enzymes in the mouth are completely ineffective when the food does not reach a small enough. by the time that horse works that tongue. And it gets that food back to here where they're going to swallow it. Yesterday, I pulled something out that was 7 12 inches long out of a mare that's 23 that is not at a reference site. And it's just unconscionable to me that people can't understand that if you're going to lower the molars every year, and they grow 3 to 4 millimeters a year, and you're going to go in there with power tools twice a year, that explains why when my students put their hands in there and feel these teeth. And they get a gushy pulp for a tooth instead of a three, half inch, three quarter of an inch enamel surface to put their fingers on. Instead, their fingers go down and are near a hole with a little rim of enamel sticking out the width of your fingernail. Why is it not clear that the front teeth keep growing just as, or erupting, molars? And if you're only going to take down the molars, one would not be surprised then that the manure is full of undigested food. Undigested food and unchewed stuff coming through the manure this big, this big, this big. So, I've got some educational momentum built into my students now by, by request and I don't intend to stop. People need to understand that education about the mouth, is not an option if you want your horse to be functional into the older years. This business of power tooling, using power tools twice a year on the molars and not doing the front teeth would explain why you have molars that are two millimeters high, pulp chambers, you can stick your finger in a gap this big between the molars and front teeth that are hanging out like this. I mean, it just, bewilders me. It just bewilders me. I, I've called a number of the dentists and the dental schools and I've asked them why. They said, you in America seem to like that it's that that is correct dentistry. And if you can't get your people up to speed, then come on over here and learn it. And I'll be absolutely flat out saying it that I'm in support of everyone who goes to the trouble to get an education, but please get a thorough education.
Ronnie:That makes total sense if we went to the dentist and they just did certain things
Leslie:I did not say I'm not keen on power tools please understand that.
Ronnie:No but you explained how, yeah.
Leslie:I said that power tools twice a year on molars that erupt three to four millimeters a year and front is not effective for longevity. That does not promote a healthy mouth. It does not ensure a proper occlusion. Just go pick up the manure in the stall and start looking at the length of the fibers that are coming through that mouth. Okay, if you had that coming out in the diaper of your children, you would be at the pediatrician in half a second. You'd be loaded in the car and on your way. If your child eats a raisin and a walnut and those come out undigested, you have a problem,
Ronnie:So when it goes through this system, you shouldn't really see it if the teeth are aligned and the, the right length for chewing, is that what you're saying, Leslie? You shouldn't be able to see that?
Leslie:Well, a lot of it depends on many things. It depends on what they're eating. It depends on it depends on many things. Let's just say there are many ways and many thoughts on how to properly get a mouth into occlusion, meaning bilateral balance, back to front, left to right. If you're letting the front teeth grow and you're either doing a hand float as far as you can reach with no speculum and no sedation, Sedation is not necessary for every horse, and it's not necessary for every situation, but if it becomes necessary, or if you find that you've got a broken tooth in there, or you've got a diastema, which is a big space, makes a big pocket if you have, Retained decomposing food in the mouth and you suddenly realize you're into a big mess or a cracked tooth back there. It helps to have sedation on board. But the point is, I'm talking about you want to have well digested food. Looks like well digested food. I'll just put it that way. Anyone who's raised a child. Knows if you see four complete raisins and seven complete walnuts and you know, an unadjusted piece of orange coming through a human body a in a baby you're going to understand that something is amiss. You know, it shouldn't look like the food that's on the plate that you just gave it to them, right? A human body and a human digestive system is a process that produces waste. And when the waste looks like waste, but something that you swept off off the barn floor, so there's just a gap between quite frankly, there's a gap between the molars and a lot of these horses, which you can tell and this is what I teach my students. I want my students to understand how to select the kind of quality care that is going to make sure that their horses are not running out to the end of a natural life. I'll leave it like that. You want to have a life that left to go the life of the horse. So that you're not trying to feed the horse gruel from 20 years old. The oldest horse I've ever seen under saddle was a 52 years old. In abs. Absolutely wonderful, vibrant condition at 52 years old lessons up in Petaluma, California. The other horse that I saw, there was again, bright and just marching along in lesson he was a magnificent animal. And then about 10 years after that, I ran into a horse that was 47. His feet were not in good shape, but it didn't deter him. He could get out of any fence and he'd go courting, he was a Tennessee Walker stallion. They left him in tire and he would go five miles up and down over a hill with the most ungodly feet you've ever seen but it didn't faze him, his teeth were still hanging in there, without incident. I mean, was healthy. He was not rippy and gosh, darn, he was a happy camper. As long as he could twice a year, get up, go over the hill and see his sweetheart he didn't care, but I think he passed when he was 47 and he had a mouthful of teeth he could still use. So this idea that you're just having someone in your horse's mouth without understanding it, all I'll say is it's a choice. An educated choice about what kind of service they're going to pay for and what kind of needs their horse in fact has and it's not to say that I've got it in for people that don't have the skill they need. I am absolutely in the corner of anybody who is a dentist, whether they know what they will know in 10 years or not. But if you're a dentist with a mind shut, because you think you've learned it all, but you don't include the front teeth in your work, I beg to differ and I would ask that the clients of people like this would instead ramp up their knowledge and just get the books that are available, I'd be happy to give anybody a list of websites to go to a list of people to call to get another perspective so that you can make an informed choice based on the actual facts and not just personality or convenience or the guy next door or we've always used him and we've always done it that way. If those are the criteria that you want, well then, have at it. But I'm offering something different.
Ronnie:I think sometimes especially if you're new to horses you go by what everybody tells you. So you get a vet for the medical stuff, you get a dentist for the dentistry, and you get a farrier for the shoes or the barefoot trimmer, and You hope that each one does it as it should be and it's only when you get problems like you said that they're not eating right, or they've got pain in the jaw or foot problems. And then you start looking at each one. It's complicated because it could be the jaw that's affecting the feet, as you know it will be the whole picture. So getting that much information for a layman person, it's not always that easy, so somebody like yourself, and I think it's becoming more available. So the knowledge that you're wanting to share is more available through books, through your clinics, through your audio, through things like this so people can think, Oh, okay I've had that going on. So they'll look into it. It's about opening people's eyes, would you agree with that, Leslie? Even when you've been around a horse is a while, you think you've figure something out and there's something else will happen and you think, okay, so maybe that wasn't right after all, so you're continually searching for knowledge and for insight. to what you can see. It can be a minefield. That's what I'm trying to say.
Leslie:Well, the horse is one system and I mean, we have this problem in the human situation as well. I mean you limp into a doctor's office with a sore throat and a problem with your eye or your ear. But you can hardly walk that guy or woman isn't going to talk to you about the fact that your back is out and that you've got a nerve in your eye that's connected to the hip because your shoes are wrong for example. There used to be a thing called a general practitioner. Okay my great grandfather was a country doctor in Quebec. Okay. He used to go Out into Western Canada with his little buggy and his little doctor bag and was there you know, someone who needed help with a birth or eye infection or somebody who can cough I mean, when you were a general practitioner, you had an idea we're no longer expected to be thinking in that way and we're no longer even expected to think about ourselves that way. It just depends on what your perspective is and you can make choices about health care.
Ronnie:Yes, but sometimes you just need somebody just to ding, okay let me think about it a different way because we get set into how we think and look at things and that's the way it's done, it's like people say, well, that's the way it's always been done. But it doesn't mean to say it's right you know, you can look at it slightly differently.
Leslie:Like, how long always? A hundred years ago? Last year? Two years ago? Since COVID, you know, I mean, always is a big word.
Ronnie:It is. It is yeah, so tell me Leslie, what have you got coming up in the next few months? Anything that you want to share? Obviously not what you don't want to share. Yeah.
Leslie:Yeah. Yeah, no, no, I just I'm a, I'm a horse trainer and I'm an educator of other trainers and other serious horse people. I work with a lot of trainers in all disciplines. And I'm going to be starting some foals out at the end of this month in Fort Collins, Colorado belonging to the woman who owns the last resort, Equestrian Center out there in Fort Collins, her name's Lou Anne Goodyear, she has raised a couple of foals from her two quarter horse mares and they have not been halted. They have not had their feet handled or have been in a trailer or learned how to lead and tie, so that's coming up at the end of the month. And, and the first weekend in October. So I am excited about that. I love working with young horses you know, because they still have the horse left, a lot of these horses that have become dull or disinterested, or they can take a pounding and they're hand fed and pushed on, and, You know, they get rewarded from crowding and then smack in the head for being too close, I mean, those horses are a dime a dozen, they're all over the place because people don't, people often nowadays buy horses as a companion or to make up for what they didn't get to do with horses when they were young or raising a family. And it's completely understandable. But by the time you've turned your horse into a big pet, you actually don't have a whole lot of flight left in that horse it's kind of a dull, big, pushy, comfy thing that just makes you feel good when you see him put a carrot in one end, clean it up out the other end. I mean, there's a lot of that type of horse owner now that is not really actively engaged. That's only one kind, and I'm not knocking it, it's just that a certain amount of dissatisfaction that goes along with people in people who own horses that they feel are sluggish or unresponsive. But the fact of the matter is, if you are treating a horse as a pet, and this is one of the things that I'll be showing people in the end of the month and again in Detroit and about the middle of October, I've got a got something up on New Boston, Michigan at the R and B quarter horses. And there's some dressage riders there and jumper riders there. It's not just because it's a quarter horse place that it's like, you know, western or something. I, they all come. It doesn't matter about that. But there's really only one thing a horse needs you to know in the end, you know, it's only really one thing. Do you know what that is?
Ronnie:No, tell me.
Leslie:Do you have a horse?
Ronnie:I have two.
Leslie:Well it doesn't matter whether you have a race horse or a pulling horse or a rainer or jumper or dressage horse, doesn't matter if you have a mini or a donkey, or even if it's a goat, they only need to know where you want their feet in what sequence at what speed and when. And most people are just too busy at the head. Patting, pushing, faltering, feeding, brushing, socializing, hugging, kissing, all this stuff. And the fact is, you know, you can do what you want. I'm not the boss but you're blocking 50 percent of the vision on a flight animal, wondering why he pushes you out of the way so he can see. And then feeling as though you've got a pushy disrespectful horse, but if you have the kind of social need or the emotional gratification requirements that would set you at his head, always blocking his shoulder, blocking himself. so much. pushing him back in his neck because he's too close. You have to think about what amount of closeness fits you and why he gets used to being there before you correct or call him label and pushy and start correcting him for being too close, remember that if he's rewarded for crowding by taking an apple or carrot out of your hand, he can hardly be blamed for being too close and thinking that that's what's expected. People have to start their contribution to the problem. And when they do that, then they start having a horse that's a lot more engaged and engaging.
Ronnie:Yes I know I'm probably guilty of that and I was smiling when you, when you mentioned about a companion horse, so I have two horses and one of them is a quarter horse and she's 20, she 21 and she's not ridden yeah, she's not ridden. She has shivers, but I don't focus on that anymore, yeah she was diagnosed with shivers. So she is retired, but for me, spending time just in the field, just being with them gives me a lot. So even though she's not ridden she's very much part of my life you know, I don't just go feed her. I spend time with her, but I'm smiling because I did get a companion she used to be in a herd next to and within another horse, my friend's horses. So when they moved away, she was on her own and it was really hard and sad to see because I saw her change, her whole demeanor changed. So for me, I thought I'd never do that to her again. So I wanted a companion, but I also wanted something that I could ride maybe later. So I got a Welsh section D. So I've got a quarter horse and a Welsh section D. And they're both very different yeah, so I thought I'd just share that bit with you.
Leslie:Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I'm sure they are different. I need to give you a fair warning that in about 10 minutes, I need to go, I've got a 3 30 appointment that I have to drive to.
Ronnie:Oh no, that's fine, that's fine listen today's chat and get together was a bit of a challenge anyway, to get together through lots of different reasons and we've had a bit of a conversation, but if you're happy to come back another time we'll have a Another conversation, that's if you want to, Leslie, it's entirely up to you, I've not even scratched the surface of where I wanted to go, but I'm struggling to listen. One question. If there was one piece of guidance that you give to somebody that's just starting out with horses that really wants to have a horse and they've got this dream, What would you advise them? What would you advise them before they actually buy a horse? If you were sat next to them, what would you say to them? If you can do that in a short answer?
Leslie:A horse somewhere else before you start with your own. Learn what they need. Volunteer somewhere, get a job mucking stalls, learn how to vet a stall down. Learn how to clean four feet twelve months a year, learn how to recognize thrush, learn what saddle fit is, understand when you have a sheared shoulder and that you're not going to ride because the scapula is jammed up into the withers, understand what occlusion is, learn how it feels on that head when you're riding mouth is out of occlusion. These are skills that absolutely all they have to do is understand that when their own tooth hurts, they have to do something because they're losing their tooth. It hurts and doesn't feel right, they'll start to understand what's going on with their mouth. All the stuff that I'm teaching now, most of it I've learned, other than, you know, some of the tips of the dental work. Most of the stuff I learned as I was growing up, Oh, I mean, you're talking basic skills, just get out there but the problem is, is finding some backyard livery stable or some backyard place that'll have you because most of the people now at this point are either retired with old horses in the backyard, or they are running barns that are super competitive and it's go, go, go, let's get in the show ring. Let's win. Let's. Let's do what we have to. Let's call the vet. Get the injections, take all the shortcuts. Let's resell. Let's get this one in. This one out. It's one way to go about it, but I'd say the first thing is you got to figure out what's your motivation for owning a horse because anybody out there, you can be sold a lot of horses that are unsuitable easily. I had two students this year that bought horses sight unseen on the Internet and wondered why there was something wrong with them. I mean, this is not like shopping for a dress. You know, it's big decision. Can you hear me now?
Ronnie:I can hear you now. Yeah. Yeah.
Leslie:Okay. So what I was going to say is buying horses, like getting a free dress at the charity shop or a brand new dress and then realizing if it doesn't fit or you gain weight or you lose weight or somebody doesn't like it on you. You don't like it yourself on you after a week of wearing it. Stick it in the charity shop and go get another one but people are sort of expected to recycle their horses. That's part and parcel with what's going on in the horse world is that, you know, they're disposable. There are not as many people nowadays because of land and space limitations who are even thinking about keeping a horse to the end of its life. Those people are few and far between, you know, if you want to go on my route certainly in places where there's more land available in the West or the Northwest or Western Canada, or rural parts of Wales and Ireland and Scotland and England, all around Midlands, you have people who are prepared to do that but as far as the industry itself, it's pretty much of a quick turnover thing now. And if you want to get a horse, you have to decide who you're going to listen to. Can't just waltz in there and throw a checkbook at the horse deal. I've got two clients right now that are drugging the horses to go on a trail ride don't support that. I don't support that. They sold the wrong horse. They don't understand how dangerous it is to ride a horse that's being sedated. I broke my back when I was 24 on a sedated horse at the racetrack for heaven sakes. I mean, I know what can happen to change your life, break your back. This idea that you're going to be having riding lessons on sedated horses and showing sedated horses and injecting the joints every five minutes because you've actually bought a destroyed horse already. This kind of thing is what gives the horse industry a sad name. And it's the thing that is, I find it unacceptably exploitive, absolutely unacceptably exploitive of the animal and of the customer puts you at risk. So I have to run. Sorry to say.
Ronnie:No, that's fine. so if you'd like to say bye, Leslie, before you shoot off.
Leslie:Yeah, sure. Say goodbye and for your time and your kind attention and if there are questions show up later we'll pick this up again at your convenience.
Ronnie:Perfect. Okay, thank you everybody for being patient and I hope you managed to get that and hopefully Leslie will come back another time and we'll go deeper because there was a lot to talk about there. Thank you very much. Catch you soon. Bye for now guys. Take care.